I looked into buying a compact full-frame camera a couple years ago (the Sony a7c2), and came to the conclusion that the size and weight of lenses matters more than the camera body. So personally I don’t really see the point of making a camera body this small if you have to sacrifice on things like IBIS, an EVF, physical controls, and heat dissipation/recording limits.
Are there any particular use cases where a camera this small really offers a significant benefit? Perhaps street photography when paired with certain compact lenses? Or mounted on a gimbal?
Or maybe the L mount and compact size would make this an appealing secondary camera for people who already own L mount lenses for Panasonic or Leica (as well as some DJI and Blackmagic) cameras?
With regards to the size and weight of lenses, Sigma also announced the most compact autofocus 50mm f/1.4 lens ever along with the FP-2, which is even smaller than their 50mm f/2 lens. It's really nice when you can just toss a full frame camera with a 50mm f/1.4 into your pocket. Of course, the autofocus is slower and there is no IBIS or EVF. But when it comes to the pareto frontier of small size versus full frame image quality, this is it.
I combine the a7cII with various small primes (Sony 24mm f2.8, Sony 40mm f2.5, Sigma 90mm f2.8, Voigtlander 35mm f1.4) and I have a very capable camera that fits in a tiny bag. It's great for street and travel.
Then when I need to I can attach the same body to a big lens (Tamron 28-200, Sigma 100-400) and slap on a Smallrig grip to counteract the lens weight. It's great for protests and birding.
IMO the benefit is that one can purchase a single body and do big camera and small camera things with it.
The a7cII has a built-in EVF and IBIS, though, and it’s priced similarly to the FP2. Autofocus on the a7cII is probably better, too. I can definitely see the appeal of the a7cII even though in the end I decided to go with a camera system with smaller, less expensive lenses.
Whereas the FP2 seems to compromise more on useful features in the name of compactness.
There's a saying "buy the glass, rent the camera" as camera bodies change much more frequently than lenses. There's more camera mounts now than when I first heard the saying though.
I think you've mixed that one up, its usually something like "date the body, marry the glass", implying you'll buy and sell many camera bodies over time but keep good lenses. For non professional work you'd want to own both the body and lens, going to the rental shop every time you go on holiday or to a birthday party would be a pain.
For professional work you rent both the lens and the body so you can use the highest end gear specialized for the one particular job and aren't left hanging on to a $10k lens you use once a year.
The saying is a little outdated, or at least it needs more nuance rather than being a hard rule.
Nowadays lenses are improving in image quality significantly, particularly in the suppression of chromatic aberrations, and sharpness across the frame in zooms and wide angle lenses. Cheap mirrorless lenses put legendary L glass to shame nowadays. A bunch of Chinese manufacturers have autofocus lenses with amazing image quality. However, the bodies are sort of plateauing with 24 MP sensors still being popular for many years.
How do people who are far sighted use cameras without EVF ? When I have to hold a camera 20 cm in front of me to film I just pretend I'm able to focus on the LCD.
Why not but..
No grip, with a zoom it can become complicated to hold the whole thing properly.
And at what price?
On the other hand, regarding miniaturization, it’s a success.
I like this concept of a minimal core camera which has a huge sensor, the logic board, a battery compartment, and then mounting points for accessories to customize it to the use case.
Lack of in body image stabilization is difficult, though. It makes sense for a minimum size camera but IBIS is amazing when it’s working well.
I have an older camera with GPS, it takes many minutes after turning on to acquire a gps fix, usually I’ve taken my photo and turned it off again long before it’s found a gps fix. It also drains the battery.
Meanwhile my Sony camera acquires a location from my phone instantly. That’s why gps has been removed, it’s so much better to acquire location from your phone which always has a fix.
I also self host Dawarich which has a log of my location and can plug in to Immich to fill in location metadata for any photos which are missing it.
Handheld cameras aren’t meant to be interacted with a lot. The interface is supposed to get out of the way and get photos to the SD card as fast and predictably as possible.
Sony camera firmware is Android based, but without the Android UI.
Some of the camera makers have added apps and app stores and they haven’t been popular.
Most users don’t want their dedicated camera to be a full Android phone. The specs of the CPU don’t matter as long as it shoots fast enough and does what you need when you press the button.
The touchscreens are a common point of complaint as they are. Many photographers want physical controls and a viewfinder. The screen is only there to review photos quickly.
I also want to upload to Google Photos automatically. And have the ability to share to Facebook Messenger, post to Facebook Wall, live stream to Instagram or Youtube or whatever... It adds up, pretty quickly.
It sounds like you want the photos to be accessible from your actual phone, which is something that most of these already support. Some of the apps will even automatically upload to cloud services for you.
Most of the use cases you describe like sending FB messages or live streaming on Instagram do not warrant a $3000 camera body attached to a $3000 lens. They’re perfectly served already by actual phones and their built-in cameras.
The people buying these professional units don’t buy them to send straight to FB messenger.
> Handheld cameras aren’t meant to be interacted with a lot. The interface is supposed to get out of the way and get photos to the SD card as fast and predictably as possible.
Yeah, sure. If you want a great shot in low-light conditions, you often need to tweak the color balance and exposure.
My usual test is taking a picture of the full moon. Most cameras on automatic settings result in a white blob.
I also frequently want to review a couple of previous photos to see if I messed up anything.
> Some of the camera makers have added apps and app stores and they haven’t been popular.
Camera app stores were never popular because the SDKs for cameras were obscure and buggy.
I’m really keen for the future of modded firmwares on cameras. One feature I’d love to have is starting an SMB or ftp server on the camera so I can just copy files over the network rather than having to move sd cards or plug anything in.
It’s just another point of planed obsolescence. Your Android camera with direct to Facebook upload will stop getting updated in a few years and be useless junk. Meanwhile 2008 digital cameras work just as well as they did back then.
This camera was great. I could take pictures and upload them directly to Picassa without screwing around with SD cards. The camera UI was also a step up from the regular morass of menus, all alike.
Same. Mobile phones have excellent image processing, displays, and interfaces, but small optics and sensors. Dedicated cameras have big optics and sensors, but bad/limited image processing, displays, and interfaces.
The market is just not demanding it. People buying these full frame cameras opt to shoot in raw and have a desktop program with significantly more compute and control after the fact do the processing.
Whatever denoising algorithm they put on the camera, your laptop will do it better. Stripping back the processing means you can take photos at 60fps with minimal battery drain.
Most of the 'image processing' on phones involve AI processing to make all pictures look 'nice' but same-ish, which is not really what the market wants from dedicated high-end camera with big optics and sensors.
But a very small sensor paired with a good telephoto lens is an interesting option. You can get away with much less glass for the same zoom but the downsides of a small sensor. So you get something like the Nikon Coolpix P1100 which has 2000mm full-frame equivalent magnification, but only 16MP and terrible low light performance.
I wonder if we can create a small device that sits on the camera hot shoe with a crappy camera that takes a “verified photo” every time you press the shutter button. You use the main camera photo primarily but if anyone cares to verify you can look at the embedded verified version to see it’s largely the same.
Yeah, there are plenty of modern cameras that don't have it, but it would still be nice for Sigma to join the other camera manufacturers that are supporting C2PA.
there's no threat model for this (mass-media image authenticity verification) that attestation solves. i mean, i know people will say that there is, but they're all wrong haha.
Are there any particular use cases where a camera this small really offers a significant benefit? Perhaps street photography when paired with certain compact lenses? Or mounted on a gimbal?
Or maybe the L mount and compact size would make this an appealing secondary camera for people who already own L mount lenses for Panasonic or Leica (as well as some DJI and Blackmagic) cameras?
Then when I need to I can attach the same body to a big lens (Tamron 28-200, Sigma 100-400) and slap on a Smallrig grip to counteract the lens weight. It's great for protests and birding.
IMO the benefit is that one can purchase a single body and do big camera and small camera things with it.
Whereas the FP2 seems to compromise more on useful features in the name of compactness.
For professional work you rent both the lens and the body so you can use the highest end gear specialized for the one particular job and aren't left hanging on to a $10k lens you use once a year.
Nowadays lenses are improving in image quality significantly, particularly in the suppression of chromatic aberrations, and sharpness across the frame in zooms and wide angle lenses. Cheap mirrorless lenses put legendary L glass to shame nowadays. A bunch of Chinese manufacturers have autofocus lenses with amazing image quality. However, the bodies are sort of plateauing with 24 MP sensors still being popular for many years.
Lack of in body image stabilization is difficult, though. It makes sense for a minimum size camera but IBIS is amazing when it’s working well.
Meanwhile my Sony camera acquires a location from my phone instantly. That’s why gps has been removed, it’s so much better to acquire location from your phone which always has a fix.
I also self host Dawarich which has a log of my location and can plug in to Immich to fill in location metadata for any photos which are missing it.
Like a Pixel 6a is $249 new right now.
So, where's that same caliber of hardware, but as a camera-first?
Sony camera firmware is Android based, but without the Android UI.
Some of the camera makers have added apps and app stores and they haven’t been popular.
Most users don’t want their dedicated camera to be a full Android phone. The specs of the CPU don’t matter as long as it shoots fast enough and does what you need when you press the button.
The touchscreens are a common point of complaint as they are. Many photographers want physical controls and a viewfinder. The screen is only there to review photos quickly.
Most of the use cases you describe like sending FB messages or live streaming on Instagram do not warrant a $3000 camera body attached to a $3000 lens. They’re perfectly served already by actual phones and their built-in cameras.
The people buying these professional units don’t buy them to send straight to FB messenger.
Yeah, sure. If you want a great shot in low-light conditions, you often need to tweak the color balance and exposure.
My usual test is taking a picture of the full moon. Most cameras on automatic settings result in a white blob.
I also frequently want to review a couple of previous photos to see if I messed up anything.
> Some of the camera makers have added apps and app stores and they haven’t been popular.
Camera app stores were never popular because the SDKs for cameras were obscure and buggy.
Nowadays Android is mostly a hidden implementation detail, but I did recently see someone Claude+ADB some neat stuff for their Sony camera.
https://th.hkyongnuo.com/products/yn455
https://www.classiccameradatabase.com/blog/the-mirrorless-ca...
This camera was great. I could take pictures and upload them directly to Picassa without screwing around with SD cards. The camera UI was also a step up from the regular morass of menus, all alike.
Whatever denoising algorithm they put on the camera, your laptop will do it better. Stripping back the processing means you can take photos at 60fps with minimal battery drain.
But a very small sensor paired with a good telephoto lens is an interesting option. You can get away with much less glass for the same zoom but the downsides of a small sensor. So you get something like the Nikon Coolpix P1100 which has 2000mm full-frame equivalent magnification, but only 16MP and terrible low light performance.
https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/1102-C...
https://hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/1077-Googl...
https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/1037-C...
https://www.da.vidbuchanan.co.uk/blog/android-c2pa.html