> Not sure if that is better than just using a helicopter however.
Anyone who has done first responder training should have had it drilled into their skulls to remember the number one rule .... "do not add yourself to the injury list".
If you're operating in a war-zone its kind of the same thing. Send in a helicopter to drop off one or more guys and you are also sending in bare minimum of one extra person but realistically almost certainly three extra people (two at the front and one at the back to watch the people jumping out).
Also drones are probably somewhat cheaper than helicopters. Both to buy and to operate.
Because it's not America with Vietnam/ Iraq war mindset.
Helicopters are extremely vulnerable for drone interceptors. With Recent developments, the an interceptor can fly up to 600 km/h. It can also wait for you on the balloon.
Overall, piloted aviation, it's almost a dead end with all the recent capabilities.
Piloted aviation is still very much alive. US and Israeli 5th generation aircraft took minimal losses in the recent strikes on Iran despite some fairly capable defenses. Drone capabilities will continue to improve but for now the autonomous flight control software is incapable of complex, dynamic missions and remote piloting doesn't work in a hostile EW environment. We'll increasingly see manned/unmanned teaming with the drones pushing forward while the manned aircraft trail behind, but close enough to exercise tight control.
That's not necessarily true. The point of war is to force control. You can force control without killing people. Economically, psychologically, digitally, etc. Killing people is one of the ways but not the only way to wage war.
Not exactly the same but Zipline has been transporting medical supplies in Africa for almost a decade (in the US I think they're mostly focused on food delivery which is more profitable)
https://time.com/5295821/ziplines-drones-are-saving-lives/
To be precise, innovation doesn't mean invention. I never claimed that Ukraine was the first to invent organ delivery, but it definitely keeps innovating in this field.
Anyway, the point is that there is a lot of interesting/innovative going on with regards to drones in Ukraine.
Loitering munitions are already a thing. You just need to combine that concept with interceptor drones. Actually I'm not sure autonomous interceptors are a thing yet, so that might be the blocker.
From outside it seems that Ukraine is not really given a choice right now but to defend itself. I wish for a soon end to the war so your beautiful country can prosper again and your people can start healing.
A woman wrote "I ask for bread" in the snow in front of her house. A passing drone photographed it. This led to a later mission to air drop food to her.
It is a good innovation in the same way a shield is a good innovation. Perhaps people do not always want to innovate in the area of war, but instead doing something else, but they are forced to innovate like this.
Was it two years ago, or even longer, that Akhmat troops claimed Ukrainian drones tried to abduct their men in the field? Who knows, it might end up actually happen one day. Wild.
Pretty horrifying prospect really. Imagine the buzzing of a huge drone descending upon you from nowhere, before it just grabs you with its metal arms, and whisks you away into the sky, lol.
Guess it's better than dropping nades on top of you, maybe :/
If a drone wanted to kill you, it would use a bullet. Cheapest and easiest way, with the least risk to the drone.
The extraction case would only be for high-value targets (enemy military/economic/political leaders), where having them alive would give leverage on having them order their organizations to do something useful for the drone owner.
for the Russian soldiers, it would certainly be a better fate than remaining on the field for a few more tens of minutes before they die (on average). AFAICT, they are treated better in Ukrainian POW camps than in the Russian deployed positions
Right, highlight the one incident on the Ukrainian side vs the standard war-crimes treatment by the Russians, and yes, there are also a number of incidents during capture on the both sides.
Also note the mismatch in POWs died in captivity returned by Ukraine (14) vs by Russia (>1000, as of [0]).
And note the overall condition of Russian soldiers returned is well-fed, and Ukrainians returned are barely walking.
It has been some 400 years since Cardinal Richelieu said "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." [1] We can always find an exception to condemn someone.
Our task is instead to try to get a fair grasp on what is happening. Highlighting the exceptional event out of context is not helpful
There are actually quite a few more documented incidents of POW abuse on the Ukrainian side than the one I linked to, but I think I would agree that there's probably more on the Russian side. I don't consider the amount of POW abuse on the Ukrainian side to be negligible though, nor would I expect it to be given how bitter this war is.
Yes, I'm sure it is not negligible, since it never is, even with the best-disciplined military. Adrenalin runs pretty high when people are trying their best to kill you and all your family, friends, and countrymen.
But we must also be sure to balance when a country such as Ukraine tries to uphold a moral standard as policy, and when they fail, prosecutes the offenders, vs a country like Russia which makes a standard practice of war crimes.
Dude, the guys in the Tornado Battalion, who were convicted of absolutely horrifying sexual violence and other atrocities during the 2014 war, were pardoned and released from prison shortly after the war started. What kind of signal was that supposed to send?
I think ideologically extreme volunteers on either side are more likely to commit war crimes than regular troops. The incident I linked above was perpetrated by the Kraken Battalion, which is basically the Kharkiv chapter of the neo-Nazi Azov Regiment (formerly based in Mariupol). Similarly, the horrific video of the castration/execution of a Ukrainian POW seemed to be related to Rusich, the Russian neo-Nazi volunteer unit.
A net shooting drone that pops an expanding weather balloon would get anyone you need off the ground and then plenty of time to collect then while they are floating around
Please don't post political/ideological rhetoric on HN. It doesn't matter how correct your position is or how correct you feel it is; it only leads to back and forth arguments between people on opposing sides, and that's just what we're trying to avoid. Please aim for curious conversation at all times here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
Setting aside the politics and the personalities, if we focus on the technology and the lessons in how to produce, iterate, and deploy I think there's enormous value in looking at what Ukraine has to offer from a tactical and strategic standpoint. It's a fact that countries and organizations are rushing to benefit from that aspect of this war, from NATO states to organized crime. Unless we imagine that data from this war isn't being actively pursued by any party that thinks they have the ability to adapt their local conflicts to a "new way of fighting", it's a matter of intense intellectual curiosity.
Doubly so when we recall that drones and ML are inextricably linked on the modern battlefield, and the technology we routinely discuss here is already being used in kill chains, ISR, SAR, and it's evolving on a weekly basis.
Sure, and there's a place for discussion about that (though whether HN can host such a discussion without it spiraling into a hellish flamewar is not something we can be confident about).
That aside, in this context the issue is that the comment very much didn't set aside the politics and the personalities.
That’s an issue that can be debated at the appropriate time and place, but it’s not the topic of this article, so it’s a generic tangent and flamebait, which the guidelines specifically ask us to avoid.
The article is about the use of a drone to evacuate an injured soldier from a battlefield. It’s not an article about geopolitics, and if it was, it would definitely not belong on the front page, because the guidelines clearly state that mainstream news is usually off topic here.
> Have the curiosity to be serious.
Excuse me. This site and its guidelines have existed in a largely constant form for almost two decades and your account is a couple of months old. Of course we welcome new participants here, but this is only a place where people want to come to discuss important topics because we have guidelines and uphold them daily. Please respect the guidelines and the community expectations if you want to participate here.
Please stop acting like a jerk, thanks. There’s nothing new or clever about people playing games with words or logic to make the case that the guidelines should be reinterpreted or changed to allow the thing they want.
Off-topic tangents and political/ideological battle are always forum-killers. HN is only here after two decades because we work so hard to avoid it.
If you have an actual new idea on how to make HN more interesting, you’re welcome to share it. Otherwise, please stop wasting everyone’s time.
I wish “even Republicans” but that party stands for nothing any more, it isn’t even conservative. It’s the most bizarre and morally bankrupt thing I’ve seen in American politics and I’ve been paying attention since the 80s.
> even Republicans are beginning to wonder what dirt Putin has on Trump.
What dirt could they possibly have on him that would actually matter to the voters that voted for him last time?
Not trolling or rhetorical; that's a completely sincere question. Even if something "bad" were to surface, his supporters would simply deny it and/or ignore it, same as they've done for all the other things he's done that are already known.
You can pretty much divide American voters into two camps right now: the ones who loathe him and the ones who DGAF (non-voting voters being in the latter category).
> What dirt could they possibly have on him that would actually matter to the voters that voted for him last time?
Some segment will always deny any dirt that comes out but I think most would become fairly adverse to him if, say, conclusive evidence of child sexual abuse surfaced.
Supporting Ukraine’s defense against invasion has had better ROI than most domestic defense spending. For a pittance we’ve let a major adversary weaken itself considerably. We should do more.
They probably will, but they won't get the votes to override a presidential veto (2/3 of both chambers). The very best case scenario is that Trump is impeached and Vance doesn't have any serious kompromat.
It's possible that enough Republicans will be looking for a clean break with Trump and may be willing to get Vance in his place, especially with Trump's recent dealings with Russia and Ukraine. The MAGA voting base is looking less devoted with the recent economic developments as well and might not be so keen on his candidates in 2029. Also, if dems get the majority we may be seeing more Epstein revelations in the news.
But like I said, this is the very best case scenario. Most likely Trump will just be to busy handling an investigation and an adversarial Congress to do much but make noise on social media.
Vance is of a generation where he lived a good chunk of his life on social media and his mobile phone, so embarassing secrets could be picked up more easily by nation-level actors. It's possible that any politician of this generation in any country in any political party might be more susceptible to blackmail than the geriatric generation represented by Trump.
Vance is very isolationist and anti-Europe. He has said his proudest achievement is stopping aid to Ukraine. He says he wants peace but the implication is through the surrender of Ukraine. He is seen as worse than Trump.
I’m not sure anything is worse than Trump. He’s an amazing case study of a complete incompetent that somehow has a solid base of supporters. It’s baffling to me as I’ve always thought he was a crass blowhard and I fundamentally cannot understand his appeal.
I think the European countries' leadership are well aware that if Russia is not decisively defeated in Ukraine now, returning every square meter of UA territory back to Ukrainian control, they'll be fighting the Russian army in actual NATO locations even further west in 2, 5 or 7 years from now.
Europe are already fighting Russia. Russia has made scores of "hybrid war" attacks throughout Europe and GB, including attempted bomb-laden drones at Leipzeig airport, cutting numerous undersea cables, and even "errant" drone attacks. They are also likely behind amplifying the current unrest in France.
EU politicians don't want to acknowledge the ongoing war because they think it would be an escalation and they also have a fear of 'Russia breaking up'. Other than the Baltic states, they don't realize the only way to stop it is push back, hard and fast, as Ukraine is doing. The Russian military is low-capability and declining, reliant now on North Korea and Iran, and the economy is sliding. The reality is little could be better than Russia breaking up and finally abandoning it's imperial ambitions, which are still active today.
You aren't deadlast, you are dead wrong. On every point.
The Ukrainian war never stopped. Russia has never paused attacking for even one day, in more years than WWI. The War on Ukraine never went away and so can't "come back"
No one supporting Ukraine is supporting a foreign dictator. Zelenskyy was elected in a free and fair election, and elections have been involuntarily suspended while the country is under continuous bombardment targeting civilians. Holding an election would be literal suicide and condemning voters to death by announcing every time and place where people would gather, just to make it easy for Russia to target them. And there is ZERO question — Ukrainian civilian casualties are NOT collateral damage, they are deliberately targeted by Russian missiles, long-range drones, and individual civilians are even hunted by FPV drones in "human safari" incidents posted by Russians themselves.
Ukrainians are only defending their own right to live on their own land under their own government, and not have their children kidnapped and their neighbors and themselves tortured and slaughtered, which has happened in EVERY city Russia occupied. Russia is doing what Russia has always done — invade and genocide a neighbor, then say "this was always Russia".
It is absolutely disgusting that you come here to post such lies and characterize any support for Ukraine as if it were support for an autocracy, when YOU are the one supporting Russia's autocracy. You are factually wrong and morally abhorrent. Rethink your life.
Not sure if that is better than just using a helicopter however.
Anyone who has done first responder training should have had it drilled into their skulls to remember the number one rule .... "do not add yourself to the injury list".
If you're operating in a war-zone its kind of the same thing. Send in a helicopter to drop off one or more guys and you are also sending in bare minimum of one extra person but realistically almost certainly three extra people (two at the front and one at the back to watch the people jumping out).
Also drones are probably somewhat cheaper than helicopters. Both to buy and to operate.
Helicopters are extremely vulnerable for drone interceptors. With Recent developments, the an interceptor can fly up to 600 km/h. It can also wait for you on the balloon.
Overall, piloted aviation, it's almost a dead end with all the recent capabilities.
Fresh soldiers, with a combat load, might be too heavy. Or simply risky
The point of war is to kill people.
Ideally, it would be the last resort in limited capacity when diplomacy fails.
Otherwise you're unleashing horrors on humanity.
And if a doctor has a surgery that goes bad and the patient died, they may have killed someone, but there was no violence.
1. very advanced with drones 2. caring about their soldiers
Disclaimer: I am a proud Ukrainian.
https://ukrspecsystems.com/blog/pd-2-uav-tested-for-organ-de...
I'd actually assumed it'd be commonplace by now, but I can't find too many stories about it.
Anyway, the point is that there is a lot of interesting/innovative going on with regards to drones in Ukraine.
Also, next wartime invention: air mines.
https://www.xponential-europe.com/en/Media_News/Magazine/Art...
https://www.google.com/search?num=10&client=firefox-b-d&hs=p...
https://ukraine.ua/invest-trade/ukrainian-inventions-that-ch...
And the recent drone tech is saving many lives and lots of money.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ukrainian+woman+writes+i+ask+for+b...
A woman wrote "I ask for bread" in the snow in front of her house. A passing drone photographed it. This led to a later mission to air drop food to her.
The whole situation that required that innovation is not.
drone pickup is basically a jet pack
Guess it's better than dropping nades on top of you, maybe :/
This is pretty horrifying. Bonus points if you hit somebody on the way down?
The extraction case would only be for high-value targets (enemy military/economic/political leaders), where having them alive would give leverage on having them order their organizations to do something useful for the drone owner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_of_Russian_soldiers_in...
Also note the mismatch in POWs died in captivity returned by Ukraine (14) vs by Russia (>1000, as of [0]).
And note the overall condition of Russian soldiers returned is well-fed, and Ukrainians returned are barely walking.
It has been some 400 years since Cardinal Richelieu said "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." [1] We can always find an exception to condemn someone.
Our task is instead to try to get a fair grasp on what is happening. Highlighting the exceptional event out of context is not helpful
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war_in_the_Russo-...
[1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Cardinal_Richelieu
edit: completed last paragraph; accidentally posted incomplete
But we must also be sure to balance when a country such as Ukraine tries to uphold a moral standard as policy, and when they fail, prosecutes the offenders, vs a country like Russia which makes a standard practice of war crimes.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50156201 and marked it off topic.
Doubly so when we recall that drones and ML are inextricably linked on the modern battlefield, and the technology we routinely discuss here is already being used in kill chains, ISR, SAR, and it's evolving on a weekly basis.
That aside, in this context the issue is that the comment very much didn't set aside the politics and the personalities.
> Have the curiosity to be serious.
Excuse me. This site and its guidelines have existed in a largely constant form for almost two decades and your account is a couple of months old. Of course we welcome new participants here, but this is only a place where people want to come to discuss important topics because we have guidelines and uphold them daily. Please respect the guidelines and the community expectations if you want to participate here.
Off-topic tangents and political/ideological battle are always forum-killers. HN is only here after two decades because we work so hard to avoid it.
If you have an actual new idea on how to make HN more interesting, you’re welcome to share it. Otherwise, please stop wasting everyone’s time.
>Use of kompromat has been common in the politics of Russia[7] and other post-Soviet states
Surely they wouldn't do the things that they usually do with Trump, who visited Russia in 1987 upon invitation by, more or less clearly, the KGB?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_between_Trump_associates...
What dirt could they possibly have on him that would actually matter to the voters that voted for him last time?
Not trolling or rhetorical; that's a completely sincere question. Even if something "bad" were to surface, his supporters would simply deny it and/or ignore it, same as they've done for all the other things he's done that are already known.
You can pretty much divide American voters into two camps right now: the ones who loathe him and the ones who DGAF (non-voting voters being in the latter category).
Some segment will always deny any dirt that comes out but I think most would become fairly adverse to him if, say, conclusive evidence of child sexual abuse surfaced.
But like I said, this is the very best case scenario. Most likely Trump will just be to busy handling an investigation and an adversarial Congress to do much but make noise on social media.
EU politicians don't want to acknowledge the ongoing war because they think it would be an escalation and they also have a fear of 'Russia breaking up'. Other than the Baltic states, they don't realize the only way to stop it is push back, hard and fast, as Ukraine is doing. The Russian military is low-capability and declining, reliant now on North Korea and Iran, and the economy is sliding. The reality is little could be better than Russia breaking up and finally abandoning it's imperial ambitions, which are still active today.
The Ukrainian war never stopped. Russia has never paused attacking for even one day, in more years than WWI. The War on Ukraine never went away and so can't "come back"
No one supporting Ukraine is supporting a foreign dictator. Zelenskyy was elected in a free and fair election, and elections have been involuntarily suspended while the country is under continuous bombardment targeting civilians. Holding an election would be literal suicide and condemning voters to death by announcing every time and place where people would gather, just to make it easy for Russia to target them. And there is ZERO question — Ukrainian civilian casualties are NOT collateral damage, they are deliberately targeted by Russian missiles, long-range drones, and individual civilians are even hunted by FPV drones in "human safari" incidents posted by Russians themselves.
Ukrainians are only defending their own right to live on their own land under their own government, and not have their children kidnapped and their neighbors and themselves tortured and slaughtered, which has happened in EVERY city Russia occupied. Russia is doing what Russia has always done — invade and genocide a neighbor, then say "this was always Russia".
It is absolutely disgusting that you come here to post such lies and characterize any support for Ukraine as if it were support for an autocracy, when YOU are the one supporting Russia's autocracy. You are factually wrong and morally abhorrent. Rethink your life.