Unified Arabic

(worksthatwork.com)

96 points | by spacebuffer 4 days ago

16 comments

  • TFNA 3 days ago
    Efforts to reform Arabic script made more sense decades ago when illiteracy was high. But once the internet came along, the young people across the Arabic-speaking world who might have once been illiterate, took to literacy very keenly: you had to be at least at little literate to SMS with friends, access internet porn, and get sweet dopamine hits on social media. Suddenly Arabic script turned out not to be that big of a problem after all.
    • pseingatl 52 minutes ago
      Those same teens came up with Arabizi so they could text. It consists of the Roman alphabet plus the numbers 3,5,7 and 9. It's written left to right and was created for texting on feature phones. Everyone can read it in any Arabic-speaking country. Given that so little is published in Arabic, a change to this grassroots script is long overdue.
      • leviathan 31 minutes ago
        I still maintain to this day that the original usable numbers were 2, 3, and 7.

        All that 5 and 6 and 9 crap is useless and those letter were and could be done with normal latin letters:

        5 already has kh, 6 already has t, 9 already has d, don't know what people used for غ but you can write it with gh

  • musictubes 3 days ago
    My biggest problem letter is mim. It essentially disappears in a lot of styles. If I was more fluent I’m sure I’d recognize the words more readily and know when to look for it. I don’t find the rest of the letters too difficult even at my basic level.

    I was struck by the lack of books in the homes of even educated people in Yemen. I once went to a book fair in Sana’a that was well attended. Think it was on a college campus. I don’t remember seeing many novels in Arabic, they were mostly in English and French. I had been told that if someone sent me any books in the mail they would have to be cleared by the censor before I would get them. That pretty much equated to never getting them. The book fair was a relief. I picked up David Copperfield and Women in Love and that was enough to last me until I made a trip out of the country.

    • greazy 3 days ago
      The lack of books and therefore lack of reading leads to reduce vocabulary. I read somewhere the average of known words by an Arabic speaker was substantially lower than English speakers.

      When I switch to speaking Arabic (poorly) I struggle to find words because my vocab level is so bad. Imagine for an every day person, not being able to effectively express themselves. It would lead to a ton of frustration, miscommunication and misunderstanding.

      I really need to improve my Arabic!

      • CoastalCoder 3 days ago
        That really interesting.

        To be fair, modern "English" is a nebulous smorgasbord of words from a lot of different languages. I'm sure we could afford to drop a lot of the words from clusters of synonyms.

        • SoftTalker 43 minutes ago
          > we could afford to drop a lot of the words from clusters of synonyms

          Not really, because every synonym imparts a slightly different meaning, usually perceptable only to native speakers. That's why they persist, because they are useful even if not strictly necessary.

        • leapingdog 3 days ago
          I recall a team working on machine translation starting by translating English into a simpler form before translating that into the target languages. This was a couple of decades ago. Perhaps not a new idea even then.
        • RetroTechie 2 days ago
          You can take those 'useless', redundant synonyms from my cold, dead brain cells!
  • BrandiATMuhkuh 3 days ago
    One of the hardest thing for me when reading Arabic is to identify the start and end of letters. I have started using monospace Arabic font with little gaps. Works great. https://github.com/eliheuer/hasubi-mono
    • CoastalCoder 3 days ago
      I had a similar issue yesterday with classical Greek. Some website used a typeface that renders one of the diacritics in a totally unfamiliar way.

      I had to copy and paste the text into another doc and change the typeface to understand.

      • adrian_b 3 days ago
        I suppose that you refer to the circumflex accent, because that can differ wildly between Greek typefaces.

        Some render it similarly to a French circumflex accent, others render it like a tilde.

        • CoastalCoder 1 day ago
          I think it was either the "smooth" or "acute" symbol, but it was originally rendered as (approximately) a vertical line.
  • pavel_lishin 3 days ago
    This made the rounds on HN a few ... weeks? months? ago, and it's also about Arabic typesetting, and it's a very interesting read: https://lr0.org/blog/p/arabic/

    I'm a little surprised that Nasri Khattar wasn't mentioned in it.

  • insane_dreamer 3 days ago
    For all the boneheaded/bad decisions that Mao Zedong made, simplifying the Chinese script turned out to be an excellent one, greatly increasing literacy and having a good side effect of making Chinese writing much accessible and legible at smaller sizes (found in modern print and on screen).

    When it comes to typing on computer/phones, nowadays Chinese type Latin letters (pinyin) that approximate a Chinese sound, which then reveals Chinese characters that relate to that sound, which they can then select. it's much faster than using root strokes to "build" the character. I was wondering if any similar technique is used in Arabic?

    • ViktorRay 25 minutes ago
      But doesn’t Taiwan use the traditional script? And over in Taiwan they don’t seem to have issues with literacy or using smaller screens?
    • pseingatl 54 minutes ago
      There's an Arabic version of pinyin called Arabizi which consists of the Roman alphabet plus the numbers 3,5,7 and 9. It's written left to right and was created for texting on feature phones. Everyone can read it in any Arabic-speaking country. Given that so little is published in Arabic, a change to this grassroots script is long overdue.
    • zawaideh 34 minutes ago
      It’s not needed. There are strict rules on how a letter is rendered based on where in the word it is.. and there are 28 letters (plus some variants).
    • xdennis 33 minutes ago
      Mao did not simplify Chinese. The First Chinese Character Simplification Scheme simply adopted simplified characters in common use.

      But if it was such a great idea, why is it not an issue in Hong Kong which does not use it?

  • blacksmith_tb 3 days ago
    It's easy to see how it could simplify typesetting, I would think computers though have that mostly covered now. Making Arabic easier to read is interesting, it would help new learners potentially, but I am not surprised that existing readers and writers might not warm to the idea. I wonder if Simplified Mandarin isn't a little similar, mostly accepted, but with a little pushback.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Chinese_characters

  • mettamage 3 days ago
    I once was curious about possibly learning Arabic. I left more confused after my initial research than I went in.

    What's a good Arabic dialect to learn such that you're as intelligible as possible?

    • neitsab 3 days ago
      When I was studying it, we were told Syro-lebanese was the cleanest and most easily understandable, with Egyptian a distant second despite being quite peculiar due to widespread popularity of their media production.
    • za3faran 3 days ago
      Fus-ha Arabic (High Arabic) is intelligible as it is used in official communication, academia, news papers, documentaries, etc. But obviously it is not spoken day to day.
  • eddythompson80 15 minutes ago
    You’re up against a tall order trying to modernize Arabic. Arabic is half a language and half a religious practice in itself. Arabic speakers, who are absolute majority Muslims, have explicit statement from God that Arabic is a holy language sent by God as the most perfect language PERIOD. It’s why he chose it for the Quran, and why it should remain unchanged. All attempts to “improve” it would be an admission of some problem or some deficiency which is heresy in itself. How can you improve on what God has already declared perfect? The solution is often to go back to the older style of Arabic instead of your local dialect if you really want the perfect Arabic, not to invent new concepts.

    Even though Arabic script itself isn’t necessarily mentioned in the Quran and Muslims will generally accept that the script itself was “standardized” after the Quran, they would also argue the concept of “Authority of Al-Salaf” which is the belief that the closer the generation is to the prophet, the more authority that generation had on whatever topics they ruled on. There is an important hierarchy of authority in Islam where the Quran is at the top, followed by any saying or a judgement by the prophet, then followed by those of his direct followers, then their followers, then scholars of their followers, then their followers, all the way down to today. Since according to the most accepted story, Arabic and its script were “standardized” in the few decades following the Muslim prophet by his direct followers, you can’t really improve it. Or rather, you have to have a really enormous social influence and respect to be able to even make the slight modifications. There has been few influential Caliphates or scholars in history that have been able to do so, but it’s hard to imagine anyone today with that level of importance or influence.

    • tptacek 12 minutes ago
      This seems wrong. There's a lot of diversity in Arabic, there has been modernization in Arabic, and the Quran does not declare Arabic a perfected language. Arabic has changed already.

      I'm not saying this project will be successful and I'm sure the cultural importance of Classical Arabic is one of its obstacles but I don't believe this is a language group that is religiously forbidden to modernize its typography.

  • InfiniteRand 3 days ago
    It's interesting since a lot of language simplification attempts of that era did succeed, off the top of my head, Chinese (in the PRC) and Malayalam
    • mohsen1 20 minutes ago
      Turkish as well. They moved from Arabic to Latin script.
    • shuwix 3 days ago
      And English :) to LOL Fook this. Fook that. Bro.

      Younger generation of simplified brains will come up with even more simplified languages.

  • aaroninsf 4 days ago
    The delicate discussion of why this project failed does not obscure its actual shape. The failure to embrace has cost decades of progress in most critical dimension of society.

    I hope that's recognized and progress occurs.

  • AbuAssar 3 days ago
    Good in theory, bad in practice
  • syamjith_nk 3 days ago
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  • xaxbxcxdxe 3 days ago
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