In 2011 I got a 143€ reimbursement from Dell for an E6420 laptop that I had bought for 910€.
Maybe I got lucky but I called the customer service, told the lady I did not agree with the Windows license terms, fully ready to argue my case and she just went "oh, ok, let me just edit a new invoice and wire you the money for Windows plus the Antivirus plus etc.".
Which was extra nice because I had no idea I was in fact charged for the bloatware, but I still got ~50€ for it on top of the OS license price.
This being 15 years ago it feels like a forever unsolved issue. My opinion remains the same, that a personal computer should not be tied to a specific OS. But now with smartphones the hardware/software (de)coupling situation seems even worse.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Dell probably had standing orders to not bother to argue with someone who wanted a reimbursement for Windows, and just get it over with. If you care enough to want that, you care enough to argue your case and make life a hassle for everyone if Dell refuses. To even ask the question is a shibboleth that instantly marks you as someone on the edge of the bell curve.
I also have a similar suspicion that that order has been lost to time, partly because it's very rare that people do that (and Dell even offers Linux machines to those who do care), partly because the support's been outsourced to someone who hasn't read that part of the script, and partly because the world has become more hostile towards consumers during the past 15 years.
Tbh I worked in customer service for a long time and almost always we would give a refund for whatever the customers asked except in rare cases.
And exactly like you said if the customer cares enough to reach out, just give them what they want. Best case they are super happy and recommend you and if you don’t comply they might go ballistic and do all kinds of stuff that will damage the business way beyond what the refund costs (very little)
It's been very funny to go through life discovering such shibboleths exist in so many random places and its like getting a powerup to even find out about them...
I am seriously saddened by the complete takeover of mobile computing by Apple and Google. There is no freedom on your own device to choose your own software, except inside the very narrow constraints allowed.
Or passes to buses, trains, planes, concerts, sports arenas, and possibly soon government identification.
There was a recent story about some guy who had been buying season tickets for decades by paper ticket. The stadium shutdown the paper ticketing and left him without an option, except to purchase a smartphone.
Must be a Europe thing, as RealID pissed enough boomers off here in the States that I doubt anyone would push harder than that, and outside of very stupid ticket apps that occasionally won't let me print, I can't recall the last time a paper ticket and my drivers license didn't work. I also can just walk into a bank branch and raise a stink whenever I need something banking related, I guess all of this feels really contrived.
What freedom do you need beyond replacing the OS, which is possible on all phones Google sells? If you want to replace the radio firmware, that isn't something that would be possible without that duopoly either.
What is more surprising is that competitors do not arise. Democracies in general have totally messed this up. The USA should be fined for exerting a monopoly onto other countries. And then fined for penalising US customers with that monopoly at home.
Other countries are free to find a way to incentivize building home-grown equivalents and prioritizing that software or even applying tarrifs to foreign software.
There's no way the typically included 30-day trial of an antivirus or Office costs 50€. It must've been a full yearly subscription of one or the other, that managed to sneak in right before checkout without being de-selected.
Apart from the OS I got reimbursed for 4 or 5 additional items between 6 to 15€ each as far as I can remember, I don't have the details as she only told me on the phone and have no record of it. The original invoice had the following list (although it seemed different from the itemized price list that customer service had access to):
Camera : Software for Integrated Camera (Only for standard Base )
Windows Live
Optical Software : PowerDVD Software for Vista Home Premium and Ultimate, WIN7 Home Premium, Pro or Ultimate
Software Driver : Latitude E6420 Diagnostics & Drivers 1 S
Operating System : French Genuine Windows 7 SP1 Professional (64Bit OS) 1 S
OS Media : MUI Windows 7 SP1 Professional (64Bit OS) Resource DVD 1 S
Software : Microsoft Office Starter 2010 1 S
Operating System Recovery Dell Backup and Recovery Manager for Windows 7 SP1 1 S
AntiVirus : Trend Micro Worry Free Business Service (15 Month subscription)Software MUI
I sure as hell did not order extra antivirus or other kind of software but I guess it's possible there was some "Office and 15-month antivirus included" marketing offer that turned out to to neither be free nor optional...
I also heard the same thing, hence my surprise, but I guess I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a company simultaneously being paid for installing bloatware and also charging the customer for it...
So your personal computer was not tied to a specific OS and you were easily about to get a refund for the license cost of the OS that shipped in box. So what’s the issue? Do you want hardware to ship without any software?
Ideally. Normaly if you build a computer, there will not be any OS on a random SSD you buy for it. And it's fine. Do I have to build my own laptop to get this nice experience on a laptop?
> Normaly if you build a computer, there will not be any OS on a random SSD you buy for it.
That's why so many people go with pre-built and don't even care about wiping and reinstalling the OS to get rid of the bloat. They want a fully functioning product from the moment they power it on so having the OS is a big deal.
“Note: Affected third-party OS includes MacOS. However, it's outside the scope of Microsoft support. For Linux systems dual booting with Windows, Windows will update the certificates that Linux relies on.”
That might be true. And has nothing to do with your previous ridiculous claim. Your comment is further proof you lack even basic understanding of UEFI. But I sense the feeling that logic won't change your emotional position on the matter, so I'm not going to bother you further.
Someone probably buried your post for Sealioning, but in general even trying to install a clean windows 11 pro OS over a windows 11 Home embedded firmware license/hardware-signature on a gaming laptop is too complex for many users.
In that case, I suggest (not having tried it) that updating the OS and then resetting it might work better? Does Windows still have the reset option it had in win8?
I switched two of my PCs over to Linux Mint last week. The automatic driver support is shockingly good compared to when I last installed Linux on a PC (almost 20 years ago). It even found a driver for the random no-name USB wireless receiver I bought on Amazon, whereas I had to install that driver manually on Windows.
Part of my motivation was that one of the machines was still on Windows 7, but more than anything it was the incessant push to associate my OS account with an online Microsoft account, and the cramming of Copilot into everything, that have left a bad taste in my mouth.
Finding it's much easier to migrate to linux with an llm as a troubleshooting assistant.
Even used it to make a task bar applet adjacent to Media Controls, where I can rate the current plexamp song without having to open plexamp.
A big plus of linux is the easy ability to use workspaces and switch between them with a hover over the workspace taskbar applet and the mousewheel (and other options).
> Finding it's much easier to migrate to linux with an llm as a troubleshooting assistant.
Especially with NixOS. I would never allow an LLM to make core updates to my OS for fear of breaking it. Now LLMs manage all my packages and upgrades, and because it's all declarative, I can always revert anything that goes wrong.
I run claude code with 'dangerously skip permissions' flag enabled, and just tell it what I want. I hardly even interact with the OS anymore. I literally just tell it "install X, fix problem Y".
Someone should develop, or vibecode I guess, a Linux tool that does exactly this. A support agent so I can just install it for my mom and she can vaguely write her issues and needs and the agent does it.
I still use chat copy/paste for this. Can't argue too much when the results work. The tried and tested alternative for niche Linux issues is browsing the internet and checking different options until something works anyway.
I do recommend checking methods against another provider. Occasionally Claude will suggest X, and Sol is like WTF are you insane? Clear often and update the prompt with your latest findings, because there are so many opportunities for the agent to find red herrings that they'll fixate on.
As with all LLM work, if you know some sysadmin, the process goes a lot smoother because you can say specifically "Write me a systemd unit file that does X" instead of a vague "I want to automate this, how do I do it" and not have a gut feel for which approaches are jank.
A recent ubuntu update made my boot fail - the splash screen for disk decryption has a known bug in the latest update for my exact video card. Being able to get into terminal-only recovery mode and launch Codex CLI and ask it to diagnose the problem was incredibly nice. I don't think I'll ever deviate from Linux again since most of my issues with it were random bugs like this, but they're now easily solvable.
I switched my primary PC over in 1999, my secondary over in 2001, and haven't looked back since.
You're in a better place today than back then as finding software solutions to common problems is much easier now.
For other OS needs, just virtualize. I started off using VMware Workstation, after a decade (or so) transitioned to Virtualbox, and now today, virt-manager (qemu, kvm through libvirt).
Good that you decided to do the move. Often any existing problem on Linux has already been solved by someone; it may just take a while when you find a solution. In that case I also recommend to make local notes. I do so since +20 years. Some of those local notes helped me many years later.
I also raised an eyebrow at "the vast majority of laptops are only sold with a specific proprietary operating system: Microsoft Windows", but after looking at some estimates it seems legit. Probably only about 1 in 10 laptops is a Mac. Software developers really just live in a different world than normal people.
It got me thinking though: what is a laptop? People probably count Chromebooks, and that seems fair. Is a SteamDeck a laptop? Is an iPad with a keyboard case a laptop? Is a Microsoft Surface Pro a laptop when it has its keyboard attached?
Software devs absolutely live in their own little world. Regular people don’t even know what an OS is. All the details of computing have become so abstracted away from the user that they’re completely unaware.
A laptop is whatever uses a rigid clamshell form factor with a screen that folds down over the keyboard. A screen with a flippy floppy detachable keyboard is not that, so:
- A chrome book is a laptop, it uses the laptop form factor.
- A Steamdeck is not a laptop. It does not use the laptop form factor.
- An iPad is not a laptop. It does not use the laptop form factor out of the box, it needs peripherals to even pretend to be one.
- A surface Pro is also not a laptop, but the Surface Laptop is. Just "having a flippy floppy magnetic keyboard pre-bundled with it" doesn't make a tablet a laptop. Having a rigid clamshell design makes it a laptop.
And yes, that makes the Asus Zenbook a laptop, because it is. It just has the circuitry in the screen instead of the base. Hell, Asus literally calls them laptops themselves.
Better yet, take your business directly to System 76, Star Labs, Framework, or other FOSS/H-friendly vendors, the give you choices:
https://trustworthy.technology/status.html
Seems like it makes a lot more sense to buy a computer without Windows preinstalled.
> Device manufacturers and vendors should not impose an operating system or software on consumers
This is not a reasonable expectation.
Hardware needs software to work, and software runs on an operating system. You can't expect every vendor in the work of every kind of product you can buy to offer you a slightly different version than you would like to buy.
The key word here is "impose". I can imagine a world where at time of purchase you would select which OS (if any) you would want pre-installed on the machine. Even a checkbox for Yes/No Windows would be an improvement.
I have bought many computers that have Windows installed, they have all been trivial to replace with Linux installs. On almost all of them, I never even booted into windows once.
Was it wasted money going to Microsoft? I don't know, I bought the computers because the price point worked for me. I have also built a lot of computers myself, but most of the time my home built machines end up costing more than the pre-built one that has windows installed (although my parts are probably nicer, but maybe not always).
This is like a ton of things you buy. Sometimes they include parts you don't want, but if the price is good, it doesn't matter that you discard part of it.
And then people go to Best Buy and see there's a model on the shelf that looks to be the exact same but its $60 cheaper, so they buy that and then realize they have no idea what to do with it so I guess this brand of laptop just sucks, Macs don't have that problem I guess I'll just buy those instead.
Apple should also be forced to allow the user freedom to choose at least one other OS. But maybe thats too much to ask. I think it's not too much too ask, but I am probably an outlier.
Dont start about Asahi please. I know it exists.
Okay we force Apple to give the consumer freedom to choose at least one other OS. But none other exists, so what should Apple do? Create a second operating system themselves to give the illusion of choice? Be forced to bankroll an independent team such as Asahi (which you don't seem to consider valid)?
I may be of a different age, but in my time it was common to buy computers without any OS pre-installed. It was on you to install one (from CD, floppy, whatever).
Of course, vendors selling PCs often also sold OS's...
But I also believe your recollection is erroneous or must differ by region because I was there as early as the 80s and computers sold without an operating system weren't common. If you were buying a PC clone in the 90s you could buy it without the Windows license, of course, but the default was to include it.
Even before PCs, computers typically shipped with BASIC, which was their operating system of sort. Macs, Amigas, they all shipped with an OS as well.
Maybe not, but as I understand it, languages were one of Gates' key bargaining chips in negotiating the terms of the MS/PC-DOS deal that put Microsoft in a position to start licensing to OEM's on a per-CPU basis in the first place.
Yes, it may take some work these days. I was addressing the claim that it's "not a reasonable expectation" with a pretty poor rationale provided. The rationale applied equally well in the 80's and 90's, and no one then said "It's unreasonable to sell without an OS."
Sorry but this isn't the 70s. Even businesses expect devices to somewhat work out of the box so it's completely unreasonable to everyone except people who buy things like Raspberry PI, which are a tiny minority.
I'm sure they did sell computers with Windows pre-installed in the 90's. But almost every place also sold computers without any OS. It was not at all unusual.
The computing world wasn't just in the US, you know. Microsoft didn't have a deal with all PC manufacturers in the world.
Oh I am interested in buying a piece of hardware, they thought it would be convenient for customers to pre-install software I don’t want, and make money with it (the real convenience), and if I am to demand that I pay/ask only for the hardware, my expectation is unreasonable.
Yeah, one of the reasons why I chose my current Acer laptop was that it didn't come with Windows pre-installed. That made it cheaper and I didn't have to give money to Microsoft.
Also these models are usually expensive. Cheap/low-end models don't have this option ever. Depending on the financial situation, the "just buy the alternative" may not be possible. Some people here need to touch grass, this campaign is probably not particularly concerned with their configured 2k+ dev machines.
I hear what you're saying, but there are issues when you continue the line of thought one step.
Imposing Windows implies requiring agreements to unknown eula's at the time of purchase. Consider Windows is there in the first place because of anticompetitive practices. Stuff like this is unreasonable too. I think moreso. I guess it comes down to if you think consumers or big tech is more deserving of protection.
i think its reasonable that people who sell computer monitors also demand you purchase a computer or other output device from them. Why do you feel differently here? after all, a computer monitor needs a computer or other output device to work, no?
I was part of an event called "Windows Refund Day" in 1999 (I think) to draw attention to this issue. We had a march to a Microsoft office to ask for refunds (unsuccessfully). It was fun, but it's 27 years later and it's still a problem.
The real culprit is Microsoft's licensing which gives PC manufacturers a "discount" when they install Windows on all their computers. As soon as they deliver machines without it they lose the discount on all the Windows machines they sell.
This should be challenged in court and prohibited by law. But so far, no computer manufacturer has dared to do so for fear of losing the ability to sell their computers with Windows pre-installed.
This is great. It tells you how many manufacturers make it easy and difficult to get refunds. ASUS is the most specific one, albeit their refund range is between 9 and 65 EUR. Great work.
Why do you assume that? I’m genuinely asking. I’m aware of big companies generally paying lower rates for things, but I believe that’s usually driven by the increased leverage a big buyer has, while Asus has absolutely no leverage, if they switch to Linux today they’ll be out of business tomorrow. It certainly costs MS less to deal with one professional org than a million flaky individuals, but price is determined by supply and demand, not cost. Maybe it’s limited by calculation of its effect on Asus’ wellbeing, preserving them as a major customer?
Asus selling millions of PCs a year that each pester their users to make a Microsoft account is well worth a major discount to them than any sort of additional OEM licensing revenue. Giving Asus cheap licenses lets them sell cheaper units to more people.
And yeah, Asus DOES need to sell windows laptops because the market demands it, but it doesn't mean they need to follow all of Microsoft's rules/goals. ("Pleeeeease put an NPU in every laptop and advertise copilot for us, pleeeease") Giving them a steep discount gives Microsoft a lever to pull if they feel like punishing an OEM later, though with the goal of avoiding anything that halts the sale of PCs with windows on it, which is bad for all parties.
You can't really model that on a supply/demand curve. Microsoft supplies Windows licenses, but Asus supplies a big chunk of market access. A license to software is an infinitely available resource which only has a value determined by the market's willingness to pay for it; a market that microsoft has historically been dogshit at accessing themselves. (Surface product line, for example)
That’s a narrow view to suggest it’s just Microsoft’s Copilot that’s pushing NPU’s on PCs. You need some NPU or GPU for system requirements not just for Copilot but for any local models including Gemini Nano in Chrome, open models, models running on Linux without Windows at all. Intel and AMD are both making chips with NPU’s on the die just like they have made them with integrated GPUs.
AI isn’t going away any more than graphics acceleration is. You can deliberately buy a low-power board or notebook that doesn’t have those capabilities if you want. It will save you money too.
What? I think you're latching onto something meant as a general example, as something specific. Microsoft has many goals they'd like to push on their OEMs, I'm sure. You're having a different conversation.
You can get a new Windows 11 laptop on Amazon for ~$200. If they're paying retail cost ($140) for the license, over half that is going to Microsoft. I think most people would much rather buy the equivalent Chromebook for $70. In fact, the equivalent Chromebook costs about the same.
That’s not how OEM pricing works. Depending on the retail price and volume Microsoft will lower license cost close to $0. No large manufacturer is paying $140 to license Windows for a notebook selling $200. That’s the full retail price for a consumer building their own PC. That said usable Windows notebooks are usually a bit more than that these days. And just the RAM alone to run usable Windows 11 is pushing $70 now.
I mean, it's also in Microsoft'S business interest to keep a major computer manufacturer like Asus selling windows machines. That's one of the main reasons windows is the default OS for most people.
After drowning my last laptop in tea I needed a PC urgently and bought ASUS. Had I known that a refund was possible, would I have applied, to get what amounts to £10 refund on a £2K machine?
I am not sure!
The Windows install means my laptop has some value in the second-hand market, should I need to sell. Without it, I am not going to easily find a buyer, because it is still not yet 'the year of the Linux desktop', and even then, stock Ubuntu is not as fashionable as some other Linux variants.
What did surprise me was how flaky Windows is these days. If memory serves me correctly, I needed to boot into Windows to turn 'bitlocker' off, in order to resize the drive for my Ubuntu partition. However, there was no UI to turn 'bitlocker' on again afterwards. Allegedly I need a 'pro' version of Windows to do that, since the UI is just absent from the 'Home' version of Windows.
This process means that I did 'accept the EULA' and therefore denied myself the opportunity to claim back the Windows tax. Drat!
In previous decades I kept the Windows install just in case I needed MS Office or Adobe products to do work. MS Outlook was the 'gotcha', but then they got the web version of MS Outlook working acceptably.
Nowadays I am quite confident that there is nothing Windows that I want, so this use case has gone, yet I have new rationale to keep paying the Windows tax, to 'insure' my PC with some resale value.
I wish manufacturers such as ASUS provided Linux support, even if in a 'community' guise, so as to not upset Microsoft. With my example, I needed to change the power setting on the Wifi card to ensure that Bluetooth worked for the mouse. That was it, yet I had to work that out for myself, with no instructions provided. If I was completely new to Linux then I might have struggled with this or lacked the confidence to spend £2K on a machine that might not run my chosen OS.
Better option is to wipe the drive and install Linux. The Windows OEM license is tied to the hardware, so you can always reinstall Windows Home from scratch later if you end up reselling it.
That said, calling Windows flaky for shipping disk encryption on a laptop seems odd to me. On a device that’s easy to steal, that’s a feature you want. You can turn the cut-down BitLocker that Home gets back on in the security settings: search “Device Encryption” in the Start menu and you should land on it.
Sometimes, it seems, Microsoft will actually OEM Windows at a loss. A year ago I bought some NUCs with Windows pre-installed that were less expensive that if they came with Ubuntu. Microsoft apparently felt is was important to try and hang onto that market. I bought the less expensive NUCs with Windows and then formatted them and installed Ubuntu, saving myself around $40 per machine.
> Consumers should have the right to decline pre-installed software
As a consumer I should also have the right to free ice cream and a pony ride.
Many of us have tried to start or run businesses small or large. Does it make any sense for a government to start telling us what software the business should use or not use?
Consumers already have the right to decline pre-installed software: don't buy the laptop. There, you've declined it.
I see your point, but this doesn't seem to be in good faith. There's a distinct difference between ice cream and pony rides (which would be, awesome, with a new laptop) - and a business practice which maintains a monopoly on consumer hardware.
I think it's reasonable for manufactures putting their own software on (I.e., Mac or Microsoft devices running what they want), but all other hardware manufactures only offering Windows just benefits Microsoft, and is clearly part of the MS strategy
Are you suggesting that you never know if the computer you are buying has windows on it or not?
This is not the same thing at all. These computers all advertise that they come with Windows. It isn't like when you buy it, you have a 5% chance of it being infected with Windows.
If the Cyclospora lettuce was labeled as containing Cyclospora, and you could choose to buy that lettuce or some other lettuce, then yes, it wouldn't be a problem.
It sounds reasonable to have the opportunity to buy hardware without software you do not intend to use. Though, I do assume that from the POV of the company selling the software, it would be ideal for the customer to not have a choice. I guess companies also want free ice creams and pony rides.
This is such a boomer coded 'deal with it' take. The manufacturer is going to charge you a premium for the software license. If you never intend to use that license, it's completely reasonable to think that we could live in a world where you could uncheck a box and avoid that altogether.
Unfortunately, in practice most PC vendors get paid to bundle a giant pile of bloatware/malware/adware on the system, and they eagerly accept those payments because PCs are a low-margin business. So if your refund actually represented the amount the vendor spent, you'd end up paying them more to have a system without Windows.
You are forgetting that we are free to change and invent new rules whenever we want. PC manufacturers can change this. Some already have, like Lenovo (sorta) and Framework. It does not need to be the way that it has been.
In what sense is it unfair or do they get a pass? I’m asking in earnest. My impression is that you may be confused about the dynamics or are just trying to compare Apples to Oranges out of distaste.
No one at Apple paid for a macOS license on your behalf in any sense a legal regime might recognize so there is nothing to be refunded if you choose not to accept the license. It’s one of the many, many structural advantages of vertical integration.
Because they don't license it for and support it running on millions of different combinations of models, hardware, etc. MacOS can be clean only because it has such limited scope of what it has to handle compared to windows/linux
I’m pretty sure (though I have no record of it) that I asked ASUS Australia through their online channels before I bought my current laptop six years ago, and they said no. I never tried following it up more closely. In truth at that stage I didn’t mind having a Windows license, it was convenient for testing certain things occasionally. But I haven’t booted into it for at least three years now other than a couple of times to verify that the keyboard problems are hardware, not software.
I think some manufacturers offer the ability to buy hardware without software preinstalled and have the software as add-ons you can opt-in. That should be the way.
I applaud Dell for offering this as an option, and for getting Ubuntu certification even on many devices which don't offer it. However, in practice it's not worth much because the standard configurations are discounted, while custom configurations with Ubuntu are not. For example, in this configuration Ubuntu is listed as $140 more than Windows. If you click the info icon, it's because it's $60 cheaper but loses you a $200 discount: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-14-lapt...
I think they should note that on the page, because it makes it look like Dell is a bad vendor but in practice they're one of the better ones, in this aspect.
Just getting your money back doesn't make it work well with other operating systems.
Instead, buy hardware from vendors that ship hardware with the operating system you want to use preinstalled, and with support you can contact to get help if something breaks.
Since one can get a lot of models with and without Windows, I would suggest to ask the seller to get a variant without windows.
This way availability sorts it self over time.
Vendors do not want to sell Windows Notebooks, seller just demand only windows notebooks.
OEM/ODM will however only test some linux distributions and very likely support none.
I havent used Windows in years so maybe somethings changed, and far be it from me to get in the way of someone taking them down a peg, but this bit confused me:
> The vendors do not remove the Windows license, and you must pay the entire price, even if you do not want to use this system.
Surely if you don't want Windows you just boot from a usb drive and install another OS without having to pay them anything. Its not like Windows can stop you from installing another OS, right?
I believe they are referring to preinstalled Windows as an OS when you buy a PC. The PC price itself already includes the price of the Windows License. And the article advocates requesting refunds if you intend to install a different OS.
Its not like you enter in your payment information to buy the Windows license after you buy the computer. That's the thing. You inherently already bought the license when you bought the computer, it was just another item in the overall package like the RAM and the SSD and the battery and what not.
So even if on the first boot you just immediately booted into whatever other operating system, you still paid for Windows.
Is the money refunded related to the cost of the OS license? Why not just advocate that manufacturers and vendors don't pass the cost off to consumers?
Because the quoted price for their laptops always includes Windows, the option to configure and remove the Windows license is effectively a discount for alternative OS users. :)
PCWorld in 2009 declined to split the laptop and OS. They offered to refund the whole purchase, but that would obviously leave me without a laptop.
Utterly pointless waste of time. If I see a vendor offering Linux/FreeDOS, I buy that.
If you've had any success in the UK getting a refund, please correct me, but I think time is probably better spent writing to the MP about it as the consumer should have choice when the options are MS or Apple.
IANAL, but consumers usually do have to finalize the installation, in particular activate the license online. From a legal perspective the technicality of a running kernel may not satisfy completion.
The last laptops I bought had no operating system pre-installed other than some DOS variant or something like that. I installed Linux on them. So, not that I have anything against the website mentioned, I think people who want to avoid Windows, already can do so. The bigger issue I see is that people are often not very computer-savvy, in particular the older generation; the younger generation often knows how to handle computers better, to some extent (yes, even smartphone-only folks). For the elderly, Linux is way too complicated. And it wasn't really simplified sufficiently.
I do wonder whether AI may change that. Now, I don't think so, and I hate AI, but have a look at Omarchy from DHH. Personally I would not use it for many reasons (including the fact that DHH goes on my nerves), but IF the underlying rationale is that people can use Linux in an extremely simplified manner, then this is a good thing.
Maybe don't buy the product with Windows on it? Without an operating system, people won't buy the laptops, and with Linux, the majority won't buy them. This is bs.
am I the only one that feels like this is kinda tacky on principles, but also how much is it really worth the time, and if you ever resell or VM windows on that same box you can use your baked in license, seems like a small amount of money that is baked into your laptop cost already and they purchase in bulk, I am not convinced the effort of making this campaign was even worth the squeeze and it def is going to be more expensive for vendors to support than it would be for them to increase the price of their products in response...
I finally found the time this year to replace my parents' old T-series Thinkpad Windows 8 with Linux Mint. I also upgraded the hard drive to an SSD. The result - a 15 years old machine i5 Dual Core with 6GB RAM now boots and works extremely fast as compared to before. Also with USB and wireless mouse support out of the box - I didn't have to touch anything.
Sorry, if this offends anyone, but Windows (non-Server editions) is a junk OS that I never ever want to see or use again.
I've had some experiences like that, mostly when Spectre/Meltdown were new. (or if I had a dGPU which didn't have good drivers - or.. if there's no hardware acceleration for smooth scroll for some other reason, like chrome on ARM for a long time).
I agree that it's a dealbreaker, and the circumstances in which it can happen are opaque and difficult to troubleshoot.
Luckily these days with anything released since 2020- it's a lot better. Linux still struggles a lot with JS runtimes on Skylake.
While I am throwing Linux under the bus a bit here, I am still perplexed that we use an exceptionally inefficient language as the major application delivery system of the modern day. We complain that it uses a lot of RAM and is slow, but if you consider what javascript is compared to how CPUs think about things, it's a miracle we get what we get... we managed to get a marvel of engineering and the response has been to shove millions of lines of code through it... At some point, yeah, it's slow.
A bog standard Linux distribution boots under 30 seconds with a good HDD, assuming hardware initializes fast.
SSD generally adds 3x to that speed due to access latency for small files.
I remember pressing power button and leaving my PC alone to get a tea or something when I was booting my Windows installation which I had around for gaming. Same with an SSD. Desktop arrives faster, CPU still choked to launch whatever services are needed, fans are doubling as hair dryers.
1) Reduced telemetry and background services.
2) More efficient resource management.
Windows is super bloated when it comes to number of background task that transfer information to Microsoft and how much of the system resources their own applications need. Weather APP for example.
Windows telemetry can easily consume one CPU core after startup for 5 to 15 minutes depending on the age of the computer.
Windows updating system uses even more system resources than a Linux distro updating system. Linux is simple file copying-replace while Windows has to perform logical transactions because of how bad the bones of the OS are.
It can take _cleanmgr_ 15 minutes or more to clean up a system when selecting to remove old Windows update installers. Linux just has to mark the file as re-usable and move on. _cleanmgr_ does not even clean out all of the Temp files and requires manual interaction to do so.
Worst of all, Windows makes it a complete pain the ass to manage air gap system with updates. Linux just needs to create a HTTP server pointing to the packages on USB drive.
I slightly agree, but it seems like I have to install a restart-required update for my Macs at least every two weeks nowadays. Which not only requires that full reboot sequence, but also 10 minutes of downtime waiting for what I assume is a bunch of encryption work. So I would counter that I would like to see that optimized better. (Of course, I would like it even better if we could just branch to the alternate timeline where Apple wasn’t encrypting and signing the system volume to avoid any chance of us modifying it)
> suspend/resume
Hard agree. Frustrating that I’ve still never had a non-Mac yet that I can just shut the lid and know that it won’t be blowing fans, apparently running, in my freaking backpack. Or wake up randomly in the middle of the night disturbing my sleep.
Nor can I be confident that when I open it, I’ll see the login screen already ready to go. How is this so hard? I would understand with Linux or with a home-built PC. But shouldn’t Lenovo and HP be able to make sleep work correctly?
Yep. Reliability > Speed. Whenever people complain systemd boots slow, it's because it's following the dependency graph set by the distro which focusses reliability over speed.
It shouldn't be offensive. The assessment is accurate. I used to think computers 'degraded' and got slower and worse over time. It always seemed weird to me since logically, the silicon is there. However, when you run a proper operating system, there's no degradation. It's a software problem in its entirety. Nixos has kept my laptop running for almost a decade at this point with no performance degradation. I am only considering upgrading due to fundamental hardware constraints, but the machine itself is fine and still snappy.
It's a fair point but capabilities do degrade relative to what is considered "ordinary every day use software" even if nothing is wrong with the OS.
For instance there's a fair number of old laptops which exist now that can't play full screen 1080p content from youtube inside a browser without extensively dropping frames (way below a smooth 30 fps) because the cpu/video hardware has no support for hardware acceleration of the codecs in use. Even if the laptop has a 1920x1200 or 1920x1080 screen. Additionally they will struggle heavily with 100% CPU load doing something like running any video conference webRTC app (generally equivalent to google meet) in a browser tab.
Complexity of features and more computationally intensive things will still obsolete an old system even if it's running an 'optimal' non windows OS.
That’s a good one. Codecs are one of the few excusable reasons to me. It’s fair that we have ever-more strenuous codecs because obviously every new generation of them has better quality per byte.
What’s inexcusable is just that every application out there, web or Electron, the only two kinds that seem to exist anymore, is written with increasingly bloated stacks and layers of JavaScript. I’m pretty sure the system requirements needed for applications to run smoothly are scaling exactly in sync with the spec of the average software engineer’s (or PM’s) computer. For some reason, in 2012 something like Slack or Outlook or an IDE was exactly as performant on a PC with 8GB and 2 cores, as the current versions are today on a modern high-end machine with 32GB of RAM and 10 cores. Yet they do the same tasks. There haven’t been any big innovations in the calendar, or chat, or email - none that inherently require more hardware resources, at least.
So after fighting windows for 30yr i also have started searching for linux os to switch to. Might feel weird initially but its a must now.
60% of my time spending on windows is wasted in refreshing/slowstartup/installing bloat and updates/.
Clicking next > next etc multiple time just to install one software.
Winget is not upto mark like apt and other unix package managers. As soon as i install chocolatey or 3rd party it starts to stall even more
Initially i formatted whole installed fresh no external or extra software just bare bone fresh win 10 install
Yet its slow as turtle. And windows standard installation iso is 5gb multi iso. So it waste a lot of my bandwidth. Plus it does'nt let iso download on desktop browser. And only with phone useragent you get downloadable link, and phone doesnt have much space to store 5gb file
Cherry on top even if i download 5gb file on phone i cannot transfer it to pc as standard usb is limited to 4GB per file. So i had to install additional ssh or feem or other software for wireless transfer. Or had to use non standard browser on phone to capture download link copy it to pc and downlod.
Even after that creating unattended installation is mess and require ntlite or other and hours of waste. And now newer isos despite adding ei.cfg and pid.txt the version selection menu does not appear it enforces installation of win10 home the native laptop was bought with. So hours wasting to upgrade it to pro.
So finally this year i decided to move to linux. Keeping window as secondary. But could noy decide due to myriad of varieties. Choice is majorly between Mint or Fedora
I’m really curious how many people run this kind of skin unironically. Unironically here means they’d actively seek out to make their desktop OS look… 30 years old?
No shade at all, just curios.
I def have all kinds of warm feelings towards the moment I first installed W ‘95 but wow I can’t imagine having that UX as my daily OS today.
If I were to transition my 70yo mum from Windows to Linux, the first thing I'd do would be to add such a skin. Yes, there will be differences, but the value of re-injecting some familiarity with the fundamentals cannot be underestimated. She already hates anything post-XP and would probably be delighted to go back.
I don't run this kind of skin unironically but I do think that desktop GUIs used to be a lot more intuitive in some ways. They were still educating PC users on how to use PCs and so there was less of a temptation to hide features and smooth things out for the sake of pure aesthetics.
(The slide-to-unlock on the original iPhone OS comes to mind as an analogy on the phone: babies could figure it out, but by iOS 7 they figured enough people knew how to unlock that they could make it less obvious.)
I absolutely agree that the interfaces up until 2005s and, in case of Mac, early 2010s or so were better in terms of usability, but somehow it’s hard to imagine coming back there from the modern UIs with all their shadows and transparencies and such.
There has to be a middle ground somewhere in this.
A few years back I threw Mint plus this theme on my old Thinkpad T430s. My intent was to use it for one thing and one thing only: writing. The theme helped me trick myself into thinking the machine was unusable for anything else.
>I’m really curious how many people run this kind of skin unironically
Most avoid gimmick Windows/MacOS themes, as they know these tend to be unmaintainable over the long-term.
Keep in mind most Linux desktop options tend to be power-user focused, high contrast for outdoor use, and eye candy entertainment options just waste peoples time. =3
I work in the refurb department of an e-waste recycling company. I put Linux Mint on most of the PCs I list for sale, and I've never had anyone complain.
I haven't tried Fedora in like 20 years, but I remember odd things being broken, adding up to a death by a thousand cuts, but I've never had a bad time with Mint (or anything based on Debian).
Dual boot off a second SSD with a Grub EFI loader (it will recognize the Windows boot-loader on the other drive), and leave your windows install untouched.
Still backup your TPM drive keys from windows before touching your bios settings, or you could lock yourself out of your account.
Everyone has an opinion on distros, but Linux Mint with the Cinnamon desktop is going to be easiest to migrate over use wise (looks like XP/win7.) Debian family of OS like Linux Mint or Ubuntu 26.04 LTS support most drivers like Brother network laser printers and scanners (check support before buying.)
For most users, Linux Mint will work with your hardware out of the box. Again, do a quick laptop model search to see what others say about your hardware drivers in a specific distro. Note, Ubuntu 26.04 with rtx 5070 ti needs a bit of driver customization, and quite a bit of patches to be pleasant. =3
I don't think Microsoft actually cares (or they consider it to be a good thing) because the default out of box experience on Windows 11 is to drive the average non tech home/consumer user towards a whole array of microsoft monthly recurring subscriptions for xbox live, office365 type products, onedrive, etc. In addition to driving traffic to Bing.
"Oh, you need more backup space! Take this special offer now for more storage, only $NN a month".
Completely true, that. Ive seen exactly as you said with 4 friends of mine when I helped them go over to Linux. On the Win11 side, they didnt even KNOW that they clicked a button to sync their files to some cloudshit account (Onedrive). There's no proof either way, but their files were exfil'd.
But with the horrendous performance and scam behavior, Ive heelped others to Linux to really good effect.
Just theres that 1 person who *needed* Windows and all the abusiv behaviors it inflicts. It was more akin to "Executives dont get fired for recommending IBM/Microsoft", and a utter refusal to try something better. Theyve been a friend for 2 decades, so I gave them the warning, but did help them.
I don't even know how I got Windows 11 at this point 900 reinstalls later. I build all my own pcs. I must have paid for a key at some point, potentially.
You could have bought Windows 7 or 8 then upgraded (free) to 10 then 11. If you ever logged in with a Microsoft account for a user, then the entitlement is tied to your Microsoft account.
> the vast majority of laptops are only sold with a specific proprietary operating system: Microsoft Windows. The vendors do not remove the Windows license, and you must pay the entire price, even if you do not want to use this system. This is unfair and we want to change it! Consumers should be able to buy laptops without any specific operating system, and should not have to pay the license price if they don't want to.
How about this: don't buy a product that you don't want.
If you don't want Windows, then buy a product that doesn't come with Windows. Buy from System 76 or another vendor that sells the product that you want.
The (still limited but better) choice exists now in large part because of many years of activism[1][2][3][4] similar to that in the linked article as a consequence of Microsoft actively abusing their market position to make it hard to avoid paying for Windows.
> How about this: don't buy a product that you don't want.
How about laptop manufacturers stop making shady deals with Microsoft to force its OS on everyone?
It’s crazy how many passes these companies get. A huge number of them are still selling high-end laptops with Intel chips because they signed agreements that effectively prohibit them from offering AMD variants.
Let's stop pretending like any of this is acceptable.
A big store chain in italy (mediaworld/mediamarkt) sells laptops without license as well, of course with a lower price than the equivalent with windows license
Given the very wide selection of x86-64 platform PC workstation hardware which is capable of running linux just fine, limiting yourself to only a few vendors just because you don't want it to have win11 out of the box is really doing things the hard way just because.
It's like going car shopping and having a choice of a dozen brands and 8 or 10 different types of subcompact, compact, sports cars, compact SUVs, full size SUVs, minivans, EVs from each manufacturer. But no, you can only buy this specific model of Toyota Camry or or maybe 3 different models of Hyundai. Oh, you wanted something else? So sorry
I mean, I bought a random Intel N150 with 12GB RAM, 256GB SSD mini PC on Amazon to run Home Assistant on, it came with windows 11 out of the box and immediately got wiped. If I'd gone buying only the equivalent hardware that came with no OS or linux on it I would have paid hundreds more for the exact same thing.
And this is what's wrong with hardware like Apple: it's sold as a general computing device and is able to run alternative operating systems, however Apple doesn't want you doing that. And so they've set this expectation with consumers that: hey we're an ecosystem play, we don't care if you like our hardware and not our software because they're a package deal. Consumers not caring about this is dangerous in the long term, because if we continue down this path the open compute market is going to dwindle and become less and less accessible. You're not a business that has a license to buy open hardware? Sorry buddy, you have two choices: Apple and Microsoft. Good luck! - is where I, personally, don't want to see this continue moving.
Maybe I got lucky but I called the customer service, told the lady I did not agree with the Windows license terms, fully ready to argue my case and she just went "oh, ok, let me just edit a new invoice and wire you the money for Windows plus the Antivirus plus etc.".
Which was extra nice because I had no idea I was in fact charged for the bloatware, but I still got ~50€ for it on top of the OS license price.
This being 15 years ago it feels like a forever unsolved issue. My opinion remains the same, that a personal computer should not be tied to a specific OS. But now with smartphones the hardware/software (de)coupling situation seems even worse.
I also have a similar suspicion that that order has been lost to time, partly because it's very rare that people do that (and Dell even offers Linux machines to those who do care), partly because the support's been outsourced to someone who hasn't read that part of the script, and partly because the world has become more hostile towards consumers during the past 15 years.
And exactly like you said if the customer cares enough to reach out, just give them what they want. Best case they are super happy and recommend you and if you don’t comply they might go ballistic and do all kinds of stuff that will damage the business way beyond what the refund costs (very little)
Nothing is stopping you from buying an mp3 player, a small point and shoot, and running Linux on a 12 in ultra portable.
Every restaurant I’ve been to like this has a menu somewhere.
> or replace a lost credit card.
The phone numbers never stopped working. You just stopped calling
There was a recent story about some guy who had been buying season tickets for decades by paper ticket. The stadium shutdown the paper ticketing and left him without an option, except to purchase a smartphone.
You don’t NEED a smartphone for daily life. It sure is convenient though!
What is more surprising is that competitors do not arise. Democracies in general have totally messed this up. The USA should be fined for exerting a monopoly onto other countries. And then fined for penalising US customers with that monopoly at home.
I actually expected those to pay for being pre-installed, offsetting or possibly even exceeding the cost of the Windows license.
That's why so many people go with pre-built and don't even care about wiping and reinstalling the OS to get rid of the bloat. They want a fully functioning product from the moment they power it on so having the OS is a big deal.
It’s complicated. Those licenses have a dollar amount for accounting purposes.
Use laptop for a few months, than finally boot windows install...
https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/windows-itpro-blog/...
Have a great day =3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
Perhaps getting outside for a nice walk could lower stress levels a bit. =3
> Windows is unseparatable from hardware after all...
What are you talking about ? The TPM ? Not windows', they enforce once being there for W11 but it's not some trojan M$ code ?
Part of my motivation was that one of the machines was still on Windows 7, but more than anything it was the incessant push to associate my OS account with an online Microsoft account, and the cramming of Copilot into everything, that have left a bad taste in my mouth.
Even used it to make a task bar applet adjacent to Media Controls, where I can rate the current plexamp song without having to open plexamp.
A big plus of linux is the easy ability to use workspaces and switch between them with a hover over the workspace taskbar applet and the mousewheel (and other options).
Especially with NixOS. I would never allow an LLM to make core updates to my OS for fear of breaking it. Now LLMs manage all my packages and upgrades, and because it's all declarative, I can always revert anything that goes wrong.
I do recommend checking methods against another provider. Occasionally Claude will suggest X, and Sol is like WTF are you insane? Clear often and update the prompt with your latest findings, because there are so many opportunities for the agent to find red herrings that they'll fixate on.
As with all LLM work, if you know some sysadmin, the process goes a lot smoother because you can say specifically "Write me a systemd unit file that does X" instead of a vague "I want to automate this, how do I do it" and not have a gut feel for which approaches are jank.
Absolutely. Obnoxious and unacceptable. Then there's the fact that Windows has regressed into a clinic on UI incompetence and defective design.
I put Mint on my 2014 27" Intel iMac and it's slick.
You're in a better place today than back then as finding software solutions to common problems is much easier now.
For other OS needs, just virtualize. I started off using VMware Workstation, after a decade (or so) transitioned to Virtualbox, and now today, virt-manager (qemu, kvm through libvirt).
I’m not proud of this, but it’s the truth.
I remember trying again with Ibex and nearly rage quitting X11 config. Glad all that BS has been worked out.
It got me thinking though: what is a laptop? People probably count Chromebooks, and that seems fair. Is a SteamDeck a laptop? Is an iPad with a keyboard case a laptop? Is a Microsoft Surface Pro a laptop when it has its keyboard attached?
There's actually a very simple answer to that! A laptop is a mobile device with the set of functionalities that macOS has, but iPadOS hasn't :)
I wish this was ironic (I'd love to use the iPad Pro as laptop), but it isn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S5BLs51yDQ
- A chrome book is a laptop, it uses the laptop form factor.
- A Steamdeck is not a laptop. It does not use the laptop form factor.
- An iPad is not a laptop. It does not use the laptop form factor out of the box, it needs peripherals to even pretend to be one.
- A surface Pro is also not a laptop, but the Surface Laptop is. Just "having a flippy floppy magnetic keyboard pre-bundled with it" doesn't make a tablet a laptop. Having a rigid clamshell design makes it a laptop.
And yes, that makes the Asus Zenbook a laptop, because it is. It just has the circuitry in the screen instead of the base. Hell, Asus literally calls them laptops themselves.
> Device manufacturers and vendors should not impose an operating system or software on consumers
This is not a reasonable expectation.
Hardware needs software to work, and software runs on an operating system. You can't expect every vendor in the work of every kind of product you can buy to offer you a slightly different version than you would like to buy.
Was it wasted money going to Microsoft? I don't know, I bought the computers because the price point worked for me. I have also built a lot of computers myself, but most of the time my home built machines end up costing more than the pre-built one that has windows installed (although my parts are probably nicer, but maybe not always).
This is like a ton of things you buy. Sometimes they include parts you don't want, but if the price is good, it doesn't matter that you discard part of it.
It seems to me that you are asking too much.
Windows (+$120)
Linux ($0)
DIY ($0)
I may be of a different age, but in my time it was common to buy computers without any OS pre-installed. It was on you to install one (from CD, floppy, whatever).
Of course, vendors selling PCs often also sold OS's...
But I also believe your recollection is erroneous or must differ by region because I was there as early as the 80s and computers sold without an operating system weren't common. If you were buying a PC clone in the 90s you could buy it without the Windows license, of course, but the default was to include it.
Even before PCs, computers typically shipped with BASIC, which was their operating system of sort. Macs, Amigas, they all shipped with an OS as well.
Sure. In the 80's, all the IBM PC compatibles I dealt with shipped with BASIC in their ROM. But I don't think they charged a licensing fee for it.
Here is an HP without an OS: https://www.newegg.com/p/1VK-001E-4UPC7
If you want something that most other people don't want, it is going to be a little harder to find. That isn't a conspiracy, that is just life.
I'm sure they did sell computers with Windows pre-installed in the 90's. But almost every place also sold computers without any OS. It was not at all unusual.
The computing world wasn't just in the US, you know. Microsoft didn't have a deal with all PC manufacturers in the world.
How convenient!
For the vase majority of users, it only makes sense to buy hardware with a preinstalled OS.
Imposing Windows implies requiring agreements to unknown eula's at the time of purchase. Consider Windows is there in the first place because of anticompetitive practices. Stuff like this is unreasonable too. I think moreso. I guess it comes down to if you think consumers or big tech is more deserving of protection.
You can do that with software, too. It just turns out that there's more people who want to bundle their software
Edit: it's covered on Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Refund_Day
This should be challenged in court and prohibited by law. But so far, no computer manufacturer has dared to do so for fear of losing the ability to sell their computers with Windows pre-installed.
And yeah, Asus DOES need to sell windows laptops because the market demands it, but it doesn't mean they need to follow all of Microsoft's rules/goals. ("Pleeeeease put an NPU in every laptop and advertise copilot for us, pleeeease") Giving them a steep discount gives Microsoft a lever to pull if they feel like punishing an OEM later, though with the goal of avoiding anything that halts the sale of PCs with windows on it, which is bad for all parties.
You can't really model that on a supply/demand curve. Microsoft supplies Windows licenses, but Asus supplies a big chunk of market access. A license to software is an infinitely available resource which only has a value determined by the market's willingness to pay for it; a market that microsoft has historically been dogshit at accessing themselves. (Surface product line, for example)
AI isn’t going away any more than graphics acceleration is. You can deliberately buy a low-power board or notebook that doesn’t have those capabilities if you want. It will save you money too.
Win 11 Pro OEI, $149
https://www.microcenter.com/product/643566/microsoft-windows...
Win 11 Pro Retail/FPP, $199
https://www.microcenter.com/product/669901/microsoft-windows...
I'm certain OEMs are getting volume discounts, and Microcenter is adding their own margin as well.
After drowning my last laptop in tea I needed a PC urgently and bought ASUS. Had I known that a refund was possible, would I have applied, to get what amounts to £10 refund on a £2K machine?
I am not sure!
The Windows install means my laptop has some value in the second-hand market, should I need to sell. Without it, I am not going to easily find a buyer, because it is still not yet 'the year of the Linux desktop', and even then, stock Ubuntu is not as fashionable as some other Linux variants.
What did surprise me was how flaky Windows is these days. If memory serves me correctly, I needed to boot into Windows to turn 'bitlocker' off, in order to resize the drive for my Ubuntu partition. However, there was no UI to turn 'bitlocker' on again afterwards. Allegedly I need a 'pro' version of Windows to do that, since the UI is just absent from the 'Home' version of Windows.
This process means that I did 'accept the EULA' and therefore denied myself the opportunity to claim back the Windows tax. Drat!
In previous decades I kept the Windows install just in case I needed MS Office or Adobe products to do work. MS Outlook was the 'gotcha', but then they got the web version of MS Outlook working acceptably.
Nowadays I am quite confident that there is nothing Windows that I want, so this use case has gone, yet I have new rationale to keep paying the Windows tax, to 'insure' my PC with some resale value.
I wish manufacturers such as ASUS provided Linux support, even if in a 'community' guise, so as to not upset Microsoft. With my example, I needed to change the power setting on the Wifi card to ensure that Bluetooth worked for the mouse. That was it, yet I had to work that out for myself, with no instructions provided. If I was completely new to Linux then I might have struggled with this or lacked the confidence to spend £2K on a machine that might not run my chosen OS.
In 2026 we still have a long way to go!
That said, calling Windows flaky for shipping disk encryption on a laptop seems odd to me. On a device that’s easy to steal, that’s a feature you want. You can turn the cut-down BitLocker that Home gets back on in the security settings: search “Device Encryption” in the Start menu and you should land on it.
As a consumer I should also have the right to free ice cream and a pony ride.
Many of us have tried to start or run businesses small or large. Does it make any sense for a government to start telling us what software the business should use or not use?
Consumers already have the right to decline pre-installed software: don't buy the laptop. There, you've declined it.
I think it's reasonable for manufactures putting their own software on (I.e., Mac or Microsoft devices running what they want), but all other hardware manufactures only offering Windows just benefits Microsoft, and is clearly part of the MS strategy
This is not the same thing at all. These computers all advertise that they come with Windows. It isn't like when you buy it, you have a 5% chance of it being infected with Windows.
If the Cyclospora lettuce was labeled as containing Cyclospora, and you could choose to buy that lettuce or some other lettuce, then yes, it wouldn't be a problem.
I don't use the builtin speaker on my laptop -- can I get refund on that too?
No one at Apple paid for a macOS license on your behalf in any sense a legal regime might recognize so there is nothing to be refunded if you choose not to accept the license. It’s one of the many, many structural advantages of vertical integration.
If I could run linux on Apple hardware and get the same power-sipping performance, that's what I'd be doing.
I’m pretty sure (though I have no record of it) that I asked ASUS Australia through their online channels before I bought my current laptop six years ago, and they said no. I never tried following it up more closely. In truth at that stage I didn’t mind having a Windows license, it was convenient for testing certain things occasionally. But I haven’t booted into it for at least three years now other than a couple of times to verify that the keyboard problems are hardware, not software.
Got my money back from the store after 15 minutes of quoting the specific law.
The Windows boxes had the ToS on the outside though.
Here's a few examples:
- https://www.dell.com/pt-br/shop/notebooks-dell/notebook-dell...
- https://www.dell.com/it-it/shop/notebook-dell/nuovo-notebook...
I ended up not buying their computer.
Instead, buy hardware from vendors that ship hardware with the operating system you want to use preinstalled, and with support you can contact to get help if something breaks.
> The vendors do not remove the Windows license, and you must pay the entire price, even if you do not want to use this system.
Surely if you don't want Windows you just boot from a usb drive and install another OS without having to pay them anything. Its not like Windows can stop you from installing another OS, right?
So even if on the first boot you just immediately booted into whatever other operating system, you still paid for Windows.
Oh well.
Utterly pointless waste of time. If I see a vendor offering Linux/FreeDOS, I buy that.
If you've had any success in the UK getting a refund, please correct me, but I think time is probably better spent writing to the MP about it as the consumer should have choice when the options are MS or Apple.
IANAL, but Windows is already installed, so IMO this wouldn't apply. OOBE is not installation, it's setup.
Judge's verdict seems solid though.
I still want a refund. I feel pretty stupid.
I do wonder whether AI may change that. Now, I don't think so, and I hate AI, but have a look at Omarchy from DHH. Personally I would not use it for many reasons (including the fact that DHH goes on my nerves), but IF the underlying rationale is that people can use Linux in an extremely simplified manner, then this is a good thing.
Sorry, if this offends anyone, but Windows (non-Server editions) is a junk OS that I never ever want to see or use again.
For document editing or code it’s pretty awesome but a sluggish web is a deal breaker for many these days.
I agree that it's a dealbreaker, and the circumstances in which it can happen are opaque and difficult to troubleshoot.
Luckily these days with anything released since 2020- it's a lot better. Linux still struggles a lot with JS runtimes on Skylake.
While I am throwing Linux under the bus a bit here, I am still perplexed that we use an exceptionally inefficient language as the major application delivery system of the modern day. We complain that it uses a lot of RAM and is slow, but if you consider what javascript is compared to how CPUs think about things, it's a miracle we get what we get... we managed to get a marvel of engineering and the response has been to shove millions of lines of code through it... At some point, yeah, it's slow.
Unless it’s a post-Intel Mac, and that’s all of them these days.
You mean Linux, probably, but thats because Chrome doesn't enable hardware acceleration pn ARM, so smooth scroll is disabled. Pretty rough.
And by Linux, I mean there’s no distribution that runs on a Mac better than a 1990’s consumer HP laptop did in the 1990’s.
And that’s only for M1 and M2 silicon.
Linux doesn’t run on M3 silicon and later at all.
are serious? web is sluggish anywhere... and this is a common "trend"
SSD generally adds 3x to that speed due to access latency for small files.
I remember pressing power button and leaving my PC alone to get a tea or something when I was booting my Windows installation which I had around for gaming. Same with an SSD. Desktop arrives faster, CPU still choked to launch whatever services are needed, fans are doubling as hair dryers.
Both scenarios were on the same machine, BTW.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
2. windows + ssd
3. linux + ssd
I know that Linux can greatly speed up startup, but more likely that ssd gave bigger impact.
1) Reduced telemetry and background services. 2) More efficient resource management.
Windows is super bloated when it comes to number of background task that transfer information to Microsoft and how much of the system resources their own applications need. Weather APP for example.
Windows telemetry can easily consume one CPU core after startup for 5 to 15 minutes depending on the age of the computer.
Windows updating system uses even more system resources than a Linux distro updating system. Linux is simple file copying-replace while Windows has to perform logical transactions because of how bad the bones of the OS are.
It can take _cleanmgr_ 15 minutes or more to clean up a system when selecting to remove old Windows update installers. Linux just has to mark the file as re-usable and move on. _cleanmgr_ does not even clean out all of the Temp files and requires manual interaction to do so.
Worst of all, Windows makes it a complete pain the ass to manage air gap system with updates. Linux just needs to create a HTTP server pointing to the packages on USB drive.
Anything more than 3 seconds and less than 45 seconds is perceptibly the same, it's the same level of inconvenience unless you're in a rush.
.. but I can't honestly tell you the last time I booted my Macbook from cold.
Worthwhile suspend/resume is a much better goal for the modern computer user... Windows fucked us all with s2idle, including themselves.
> suspend/resume
Hard agree. Frustrating that I’ve still never had a non-Mac yet that I can just shut the lid and know that it won’t be blowing fans, apparently running, in my freaking backpack. Or wake up randomly in the middle of the night disturbing my sleep.
Nor can I be confident that when I open it, I’ll see the login screen already ready to go. How is this so hard? I would understand with Linux or with a home-built PC. But shouldn’t Lenovo and HP be able to make sleep work correctly?
At least in my experience it's not comparable to suspend + resume in terms of speed.
I was back to where I left when I had counted to eleven.
It’s about six years old, running W11, and was <$600 new. It has a touchscreen I never use.
For instance there's a fair number of old laptops which exist now that can't play full screen 1080p content from youtube inside a browser without extensively dropping frames (way below a smooth 30 fps) because the cpu/video hardware has no support for hardware acceleration of the codecs in use. Even if the laptop has a 1920x1200 or 1920x1080 screen. Additionally they will struggle heavily with 100% CPU load doing something like running any video conference webRTC app (generally equivalent to google meet) in a browser tab.
Complexity of features and more computationally intensive things will still obsolete an old system even if it's running an 'optimal' non windows OS.
What’s inexcusable is just that every application out there, web or Electron, the only two kinds that seem to exist anymore, is written with increasingly bloated stacks and layers of JavaScript. I’m pretty sure the system requirements needed for applications to run smoothly are scaling exactly in sync with the spec of the average software engineer’s (or PM’s) computer. For some reason, in 2012 something like Slack or Outlook or an IDE was exactly as performant on a PC with 8GB and 2 cores, as the current versions are today on a modern high-end machine with 32GB of RAM and 10 cores. Yet they do the same tasks. There haven’t been any big innovations in the calendar, or chat, or email - none that inherently require more hardware resources, at least.
Some people realized this 25 years ago
60% of my time spending on windows is wasted in refreshing/slowstartup/installing bloat and updates/.
Clicking next > next etc multiple time just to install one software.
Winget is not upto mark like apt and other unix package managers. As soon as i install chocolatey or 3rd party it starts to stall even more
Initially i formatted whole installed fresh no external or extra software just bare bone fresh win 10 install
Yet its slow as turtle. And windows standard installation iso is 5gb multi iso. So it waste a lot of my bandwidth. Plus it does'nt let iso download on desktop browser. And only with phone useragent you get downloadable link, and phone doesnt have much space to store 5gb file Cherry on top even if i download 5gb file on phone i cannot transfer it to pc as standard usb is limited to 4GB per file. So i had to install additional ssh or feem or other software for wireless transfer. Or had to use non standard browser on phone to capture download link copy it to pc and downlod.
Even after that creating unattended installation is mess and require ntlite or other and hours of waste. And now newer isos despite adding ei.cfg and pid.txt the version selection menu does not appear it enforces installation of win10 home the native laptop was bought with. So hours wasting to upgrade it to pro.
So finally this year i decided to move to linux. Keeping window as secondary. But could noy decide due to myriad of varieties. Choice is majorly between Mint or Fedora
I def have all kinds of warm feelings towards the moment I first installed W ‘95 but wow I can’t imagine having that UX as my daily OS today.
(The slide-to-unlock on the original iPhone OS comes to mind as an analogy on the phone: babies could figure it out, but by iOS 7 they figured enough people knew how to unlock that they could make it less obvious.)
… hang on, I’m still parsing this.
There has to be a middle ground somewhere in this.
Most avoid gimmick Windows/MacOS themes, as they know these tend to be unmaintainable over the long-term.
Keep in mind most Linux desktop options tend to be power-user focused, high contrast for outdoor use, and eye candy entertainment options just waste peoples time. =3
I haven't tried Fedora in like 20 years, but I remember odd things being broken, adding up to a death by a thousand cuts, but I've never had a bad time with Mint (or anything based on Debian).
Everyone has an opinion on distros, but Linux Mint with the Cinnamon desktop is going to be easiest to migrate over use wise (looks like XP/win7.) Debian family of OS like Linux Mint or Ubuntu 26.04 LTS support most drivers like Brother network laser printers and scanners (check support before buying.)
For most users, Linux Mint will work with your hardware out of the box. Again, do a quick laptop model search to see what others say about your hardware drivers in a specific distro. Note, Ubuntu 26.04 with rtx 5070 ti needs a bit of driver customization, and quite a bit of patches to be pleasant. =3
The few times I needed a key, it worked the first time. And for a friend who needed Win11, the upgrade from 10 Pro to 11 worked first time.
I'd never pay more than $5 per Windows key. But I prefer Linux instead.
"Oh, you need more backup space! Take this special offer now for more storage, only $NN a month".
But with the horrendous performance and scam behavior, Ive heelped others to Linux to really good effect.
Just theres that 1 person who *needed* Windows and all the abusiv behaviors it inflicts. It was more akin to "Executives dont get fired for recommending IBM/Microsoft", and a utter refusal to try something better. Theyve been a friend for 2 decades, so I gave them the warning, but did help them.
How about this: don't buy a product that you don't want.
If you don't want Windows, then buy a product that doesn't come with Windows. Buy from System 76 or another vendor that sells the product that you want.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Refund_Day
[2] https://www.wired.com/1999/01/the-non-refundable-refund/
[3] https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/...
[4] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/279926.stm
How about laptop manufacturers stop making shady deals with Microsoft to force its OS on everyone?
It’s crazy how many passes these companies get. A huge number of them are still selling high-end laptops with Intel chips because they signed agreements that effectively prohibit them from offering AMD variants.
Let's stop pretending like any of this is acceptable.
> Want to buy a licence-free PC directly? Search for your nearest Linux-friendly shop on LinuxSi! (Italian-only).
It's like going car shopping and having a choice of a dozen brands and 8 or 10 different types of subcompact, compact, sports cars, compact SUVs, full size SUVs, minivans, EVs from each manufacturer. But no, you can only buy this specific model of Toyota Camry or or maybe 3 different models of Hyundai. Oh, you wanted something else? So sorry
I mean, I bought a random Intel N150 with 12GB RAM, 256GB SSD mini PC on Amazon to run Home Assistant on, it came with windows 11 out of the box and immediately got wiped. If I'd gone buying only the equivalent hardware that came with no OS or linux on it I would have paid hundreds more for the exact same thing.