11 comments

  • fooblaster 1 hour ago
    The thing we should be incentivizing people to use here are batteries, in the exact same configuration. We do not in many places, need more solar power generation, but we need devices that slurp down power at 2pm and dump it out in the three hours after sundown. Utilities should be paying anyone who dumps power to the grid at peak post-sundown demand hours, so that it is a no-brainer to install such a thing.
    • 3eb7988a1663 24 minutes ago
      A suggestion I liked was to time-shift water heaters as a thermal battery. Water heaters are a significant sink (~20%) of household energy. They are already installed and well insulated, you just want to over-heat them during cheap noon solar to off-set the heat losses over the day.
    • r3trohack3r 54 minutes ago
      > batteries

      Not exclusively. A few power companies (like SRP) innovated here with TOU plans that have variable costs throughout the day. You can save huge amounts of monthly spend by moving energy intensive work to off-peak hours and by “priming” things ahead of peak hours, like over-cooling your house ahead of the peak window.

      The most costly part of an infrastructure build out is supporting peak-of-peak - that capacity exists year round to service the demand generated by peak mid-day usage during a heatwave in July.

      If you can “lop off” that peak - it dramatically reduces the infra build out cost.

      Peak-of-peak tends to correspond with sunny days: mid-day in summer. I could see battery-less solar being a useful tool there.

    • jonatron 56 minutes ago
      I'm getting a battery soon so I can get paid £1/kWh to dump power at specific times with axle energy https://vpp.axle.energy/landing
      • tialaramex 33 minutes ago
        Don't expect that to last. £1 per kWh = £1000 per MWh. Even when things went crazy as sanctions kicked in and Russia were attempting Blitzkrieg in Ukraine the wholesale prices never hit £1000 per MWh.

        They say £1/kWh is a Beta price, that makes sense as a way to burn investor money to get people interested. Their real price is TBD. Would you take 25p per kWh with a £5 per month guarantee ? That could be at least in the ballpark of working.

      • barbacoa 36 minutes ago
        Be careful with these kind of long term sell back agreements.

        In the USA lots of early adopters of solar did so under net metering agreements where excess electricity is sold back at full price. After a number of years it was costing the utility companies too much money. So they updated the terms such that residents with solar buy electricity at retail prices (~$0.25) but sell it back at wholesale (~$0.04).

    • KennyBlanken 44 minutes ago
      At least in the US, no, for one simple reason: grids in the US rarely to never have an excess amount of renewable generation capacity.

      In my area natural gas is a consistent 40-60% of generated power, with solar rarely reaching more than about 30-35% at high noon in the summer.

      Right now (as in at this very minute, high noon) in CA ~70% of the power being generated is renewable. That's 30% that could be solar, and isn't.

      When there's excess renewable generation capacity (or about to be), sure, let's talk about installations for storing it.

      In the meantime utilities are deploying battery systems for virtual grid inertia, to avoid having to use "peaker" plants, reliability when transmission lines go down, and for transmission line maintenance.

  • AuthAuth 16 minutes ago
    This is in my opinion a bad solution to the problem of expensive energy or renewable transition. Having individuals start managing their power via plugin solar and plugin batteries creates a gap between the people who can afford it and those who cant. The people who cant afford it end up paying more for electricity.

    A better solution is to do this on a local or federal government level and build the required amount of power.

    • triceratops 8 minutes ago
      Energy is expensive due because demand exceeds supply. Individuals generating their own energy are increasing supply.

      This is different from net metering at retail rates, which arguably does move costs from richer ratepayers to poorer ones.

    • missedthecue 9 minutes ago
      I dont understand it. If most grid capacity is already installed, the people who don't build their own little island with solar and batteries end up being shrinking demand against a pool of fixed supply. Meaning their bills probably decrease.

      There is the hiccup of distribution which needs regular maintenance, and is separate from electrical supply. But if this is remediated by charging solar owners base fees/connection fees, or if grid maintenance is only a small portion of electrical bills, the direction should still be poorer people proportionally benefitting.

    • Lio 2 minutes ago
      Plugin solar is really cheap though. It's possible the price of an 800W kit drops to $200. That's really not a lot for something that could pay for itself in a year and keep saving you money for years to come.
    • argentinian 13 minutes ago
      If demand decreases then that can cause energy to become cheaper.
  • bookofjoe 2 hours ago
  • domh 1 hour ago
    This is going to be made legal in the UK on the 27th August. Max 800w inspired by Germany. I'll definitely get some panels and see how they go.
    • micw 28 minutes ago
      To be precise (Germany): 800W inverter, 2kWp solar panels (maximum 4 panels). This allows you to get the 800W during long periods of daylight (e.g. east/west configuration). You only need to add the installation to a public database and plug in the inverter. Before it was more complex (special plug needed, only 600W, need allowance from grid operator) and still we have ~1.5 GW installed plug-in solar plants. It's almost always a no-brainer, RoI is typically 3-4 years while the lifespan is 20 years.

      Edit: My state had a subsidy of 300€ when I bought mine, so the RoI was instant ;-)

    • Lio 1 hour ago
      They're a no brainer especially if Lidl can nock them out for around £200 in the centre aisle.

      Unfortunately for me my back garden has too much shade for panels and I don't think I could get away with them in the front.

      So that leaves a roof top install and I think once you have scaffold that you might as well have a traditional install.

      • domh 55 minutes ago
        Yeah I'm going to wait for lidl to do them, that's the plan anyway. Anything you can buy now is ~£600 (ecoflow is the brand I've seen). Hoping some others take the plunge first to provide some guidance.

        Wish plugin batteries were part of it.

        • Lio 12 minutes ago
          I think plugin batteries are coming too.

          Right now (well 27th August) you can plug your inverter into a battery but you can't connect the battery to a ring main you have to connect devices directly to it.

          That is under assessment though so there's a good chance they could copy the way Germany does it, just like they're doing with the panels.

  • neves 1 hour ago
    Which are the high quality chinese brands of plug-in panels?
    • Lio 1 hour ago
      I've seen Ecoflow mentioned on YouTube but I don't know how reliable that is.
  • KennyBlanken 57 minutes ago
    The biggest obstacle to solar in the US: utility companies.

    Ask anyone who has had a system installed. Your system can be totally compliant with national and state electrical code, installed by a competent installer using staff who are licensed electricians, get a stamp of approval from your own's inspectors - and the utility will refuse to connect it and insist you meet an additional set of their own conditions.

    And there's nothing you can do about it. No appeals, no review process, nothing.

    It's not even consistent, with utilities seeming to just obstruct for the sake of obstructing. Over and over I've of systems going in, the utility comes out (eventually) to inspect, refuses to connect. They're called back out, nothing has changed, and the system gets approved.

    This is legislatures getting tired of all that power company bullshit, and bypassing them. As balcony solar rules hit state legislatures, expect some really absurd scare campaigns by power companies, and lots of lobbying.

    Power companies see every solar panel they don't own as a threat to the profits they make on their fossil fuel power plants.

    • cortesoft 20 minutes ago
      > Ask anyone who has had a system installed. Your system can be totally compliant with national and state electrical code, installed by a competent installer using staff who are licensed electricians, get a stamp of approval from your own's inspectors - and the utility will refuse to connect it and insist you meet an additional set of their own conditions.

      Well, I am someone who had a system installed… I have a 14000 KwH per year system, and two 13 KwH batteries. It did take a while to get it inspected, which was annoying, although I was able to use it while I waited (I just couldn’t sent power to the power company until after), but they approved it the first time without any additional requirements.

      What makes you so sure everyone has the experience you are talking about?

    • sfblah 3 minutes ago
      You could do what I did and set up a zero net export system and just not tell the utility.
    • ademup 14 minutes ago
      A single counter example: In East Bay CA. I designed and built my 9kw solar roof installation myself. No electricians at all. The process was very easy and working with my city and power company was simple, with no blockers at all. 4 years running. On a yearly basis, we make over double what we use. It boggles my mind how solar isn't on every house in the country.
    • Panino 46 minutes ago
      > Ask anyone who has had a system installed.

      This didn't happen to me or anyone else I know with rooftop solar in multiple states, and I've never heard of it. What citations do you have?

  • sixothree 1 hour ago
    Anyone have good suggestions for stands for 2-4 panels?
    • Lio 1 hour ago
      One thing I've read is that if you can dual sided panels mounted on a frame over white gravel and really boost secondary feed as much as 20 to 30%.

      If they're mounted on a roof then obviously you can't benefit from that so it would be cheaper to go with single sided panels.

  • downrightmike 2 hours ago
    Let's just point out that it isn't about the line workers, it is about raising prices on consumers.

    They'll replace the line worker at the drop of a hat, and fight tooth and nail to grow profits, that's just how corporations work.

  • CodeWriter23 2 hours ago
    There was a carport fire in my building back in the 90's. The firefighters got all set up to turn their hoses on it but did not actually start using water to fight the fire until the utility guy from the city arrived to de-energize the supply from a nearby vault.

    How does that safety protocol work when the electrical connections and supplies are distributed around the house and may be inaccessible due to fire?

    • micw 2 hours ago
      In Germany, where this kind of plug-in solar panels is very common (1.5 GW installed power) it is mandatory that the inverter powers itself down as soon as the grid is offline/disconnected. It has to be so fast that you can savely touch the plug after unplugging it. I guess it's standard everywhere.
      • paulsutter 1 hour ago
        Actually the rule is that your solar system must stop feeding power to the utility if the utility is down. You are allowed to run in isolated mode if your system supports that. Yes, even in Germany.
        • analog31 1 hour ago
          Every way I can think it through, isolated mode means your house is disconnected from the utility when you lose power, which requires more equipment than can be contained in a plug in solar panel.
    • InsomniacL 2 hours ago
      I imagine the solar panel will detect when the circuit it is plugged in to is de-energised and stop supplying supplemental power to it.
      • iolo 2 hours ago
        This is exactly how our rooftop solar works. The inverter only supplies ac power if it can sync to the grid frequency meaning that the system disconnects without a live grid connection. Even if I had a battery, this would still be a requirement under local regulations.
    • Vortigaunt 2 hours ago
      companies that sell plug-in systems argue that safety risks are minimal or nonexistent. Mr. Scherer of Craftstrom said his company’s systems would not shock electrical workers because they shut off automatically within one second of a power disruption or grid outage.

      Mr. Boyce of UL Solutions said his company would certify panels only if they did not pose a risk to consumers or utility workers.

    • KennyBlanken 1 hour ago
      Maybe the fact that these panels are legal around the world and soon will be legal in a number of US states should be a sign to you that this is not a relevant concern.
    • 0xbadcafebee 2 hours ago
      The device looks for an existing signal from the grid, and if it doesn't find it, it stops feeding power. It even waits for 3-5 minutes before trying again plus some random jitter to avoid thundering herd. It's been a standard in Europe for a while and now finally in the US. This of course depends on the utility and state as not all of them have adopted it but it's quickly becoming the standard everywhere.

      IEEE 1547 (interconnection behavior), UL 1741 (inverter product safety), UL 3700 (plug-in solar). (also there are newer revisions you need of some standards like UL 1741)

      • lokar 1 hour ago
        Also, utility line workers always treat everything as live until they isolate it and confirm it’s not live (or do the work live in some cases).
        • amluto 1 hour ago
          I once chatted with some line workers working nearby, and I asked them what they did about residential solar. They said they didn’t particularly care about anti-islanding: if they needed to, they would deliberately short all the customer wires to ground, and if anything hadn’t turned off, then breakers would trip.
      • ButlerianJihad 1 hour ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony_solar_power

          In the United States, Underwriters Laboratories developed the UL 3700 standard specifically for plug-in solar devices, establishing safety specifications for microinverters and connection systems used in these applications.[2] UL-certified plug-in inverters are designed to automatically shut down during grid outages, preventing backfeed that could endanger electrical workers.[7]
        
        So that is the standard failure mode, but do customers understand how it works?

        If I had a balcony solar panel, I'd definitely expect it to be providing backup power when we need it the most. I'd expect it to charge a storage battery, not backfeed into the grid.

        Surface area means a lot for solar panels. An EV with a solar panel on top is laughable. I own a solar backpack that couldn't charge its power bank within 3 weeks of daily full sun. A "balcony solar panel" may not keep your smartphone charged.

        • beering 1 hour ago
          Consumers in Germany generally understand that this is a cost-savings device, not a backup supply of electricity. You tell your neighbors and friends to get it because of the energy bill savings.

          They are not as weak as the toy panels you are describing, but they are regulated to 800W max anyways.

  • plantain 1 hour ago
    This is absolutely insane. This is the most inefficient way imaginable to deploy solar power.

    We could deploy 100x the capacity $/Wh with utility-scale farms. Unfortunately we are just completely failing on basic coordination problems like this in the west, every man for himself.

    • triceratops 4 minutes ago
      People buying panels with their own money doesn't take away dollars from utility solar.
    • spockz 55 minutes ago
      It is inefficient in the grand scheme of things yes. But it is very efficient on the level of the individual home owner, especially if they do not own the building so cannot install solar. It is a good way to cheaply reduce the cost of electricity.

      Yes, installing the solar power globally, and getting a globally connected grid would be more efficient in terms of solar panels/kW(h). But alas, that also requires a lot more infrastructure.

      In the mean time this can reduce the energy bill for many people. Especially, if tied to a battery. It is not intended to provide independence, for that you need a lot more capacity.