14 comments

  • Illniyar 2 hours ago
    The article headline makes it seem like the factories couldn't make the gloves.

    But further down it says that the cost was double and factories couldn't get buyers.

    These are very different failure modes, and speak to very different solutions.

    • trebligdivad 29 minutes ago
      That might have been a bargain if you could have done it during peak Covid. Having the capability to make them is worth a lot in resilience.
    • reactordev 2 hours ago
      One sounds incapable from a skill perspective, the other is incapable from a market perspective. I’ll take the later over the former any day.
      • samsolomon 1 hour ago
        Agree. The problem is over extended lengths of time the people with the skills to make these things—or make tools that make them—will leave the workforce.

        That's how this goes from being a market issue to a skill issue.

    • aaron695 11 minutes ago
      [dead]
  • dmix 2 hours ago
    The article mentions access to NBR latex being an issue, but doesn’t explain that this is less commonly produced in America because they produces much more shale gas these days which doesn’t result in enough butadiene needed. So the most important supply chain to build the product is mostly coming out of Asian and European crackers. Giving an advantage to the Malaysian factories on top of the other lower costs of business there.

    Which makes you wonder why the government thought it was a feasible investment or if they didn’t care and hand waved it with ‘national security’.

  • atombender 4 hours ago
  • cherryteastain 4 hours ago
    How are these types of awards usually structured? Are they just grants? If so, doesn't that create a perverse incentive to take the money even if you never intend to deliver the result?
  • cyberge99 2 hours ago
    Needs an orthogonal approach. Perhaps Elmer's glue that physician’s can dip their hands in and rinse off?
    • fkdk 2 hours ago
      Some of my early research (elementary school) suggested that certain glues can form a peelable, skin-like layer. Maybe that could be a promising way forward?
  • taneq 4 hours ago
    Is this the new “China can’t manufacture a ball point pen”? (Which I strongly suspect they can do at this point. :)
    • maxglute 4 hours ago
      Ballpoint pen tips was proxy Li Keqiang used to shame PRC industry to build precision micromachining capabilities (tungsten carbide for high-end munitions etc), TISCO did it in like a year and it upgraded entire PRC metallurgy chain. US struggling to make 100% indigenized gloves 5+ years after covid... is well maybe not something new relative to US industrial decline, but certainly something else. I'm sure US can... but at what cost and all that.
      • code_duck 2 hours ago
        The article states some of the companies successfully made gloves, but customers such as hospitals considered the prices too high, which is why they're looking to the federal government to be the primary customer now.
        • maxglute 2 hours ago
          Article says 1% of gloves are made in US, but US doesn't produce any of the rubber, so raw inputs not American.
    • probably_wrong 2 hours ago
      More like the new "America can't manufacture a grill scrubber" [1].

      For those who haven't seen the video, YouTuber Destin Sandlin ("Smarter every day") tried to build a grill scrubber using 100% materials from the US and failed.

      [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZTGwcHQfLY

    • gcanyon 1 hour ago
      One interesting point is that China "can't" (more like "is significantly behind on") manufacture jet engines -- the blades are the sticking point, they are ridiculously engineered.
  • karakoram 4 hours ago
    A very important question to ask.

    Should the US make medical gloves?

    • kaashif 4 hours ago
      Asking this question only a handful of years after a global pandemic...

      If the next pandemic is 50% deadly, not being able to make gloves is surely the canary in the coal mine proving we wouldn't be able to make any other PPE.

      And no country can rely on another if it's do or die. Other blocs will keep to themselves.

      • JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago
        And in the midst of a start-stop petrochemical supply crisis.
      • jeffrallen 3 hours ago
        Those who do not learn from history... probably don't make gloves.
      • raverbashing 4 hours ago
        It's amazing how much those spreadsheet heads know nothing about how the actual world works
        • vrganj 3 hours ago
          You gotta optimize everything for the market man! It's magic! Everything will work out if we only make number go up!

          Who cares about silly stuff like health emergencies, the climate catastrophe or war. Number must go up!

          • ikari_pl 3 hours ago
            correction: the number must go up FASTER. if it just keeps going up same as yesterday, we will lose investors
          • philipallstar 2 hours ago
            You don't need to optimise for the market. The market is the optimising machine. Get in its way with slow regulators or subsidies or bailouts and you get all the problems.
            • vrganj 1 hour ago
              Heh sure, it's great at optimizing.

              The problem is it's an optimizing function for the rich getting richer, not for the good of society, not for reducing human suffering, not even, y'know, the survival of the human race.

          • fartfeatures 3 hours ago
            Redundancy is just waste wearing a trench coat etc etc.
          • matchbok3 2 hours ago
            Well, for the most part this is actually true. Taking care of the exceptions is the hard part.

            Also, "climate catastrophe" is not a thing.

        • hypeatei 1 hour ago
          Doing basic math makes someone a "spreadsheet head"? If the "actual world" wanted American-made gloves then this cash injection from the government would've resulted in a boom in glove manufacturing here, no?

          I always see catastrophizing and autarkist-coded takes like this which imply the US is a house of cards because we don't manufacture everything under the sun at all times. You have to realize that preparing for a doomsday scenario like 50% fatality rate pandemic has a cost that someone foots the bill for. Even in 2020 with a buffoon running the country, we still reacted very quickly and developed multiple vaccines to combat a novel virus (yes, the response was bungled in other ways but I digress)... people, markets, etc. are adaptable and we will figure it out.

    • jofzar 4 hours ago
      Looks like most/all manufacturing happens in the SEA/China, so I can see the logic that it could be considered a military risk for it to not be manufactured/possibility to scale manufacturing in America.
    • maxglute 4 hours ago
      Someone already decided US should. The important question is whether 1B should have gotten the job done, and if not... is it matter of throwing good $$$ after bad $$$... or is it just bad sign 1B wasn't enough.
    • barrenko 4 hours ago
      Yeah, you should make stuff medical staff needs.
      • expedition32 3 hours ago
        Or maybe not start stupid wars but this is America we're talking so meh...
    • PowerElectronix 2 hours ago
      Making them? Not in the least. But being capable of making them? It's a must, be it gloves, EVs, semis, or screws.
      • fl0id 2 hours ago
        It's all a question of price, based on the article. And not planning how much it takes to start up. In any case it's also not feasible to keep a plant on standby, just in case you need it one day.
    • goalieca 2 hours ago
      The USA can make anything if there’s money in it. Right now, I just don’t think there’s any.
    • warumdarum 2 hours ago
      The more important part is how to make people who ask this question a permanent pariahs?
    • tonyedgecombe 4 hours ago
      Also what the cost is. If the US really wants to reshore this sort of work then it will become materially poorer.
    • einpoklum 4 hours ago
      The story says the US doesn't have the raw material(s): NBR. Not quite sure what that is.
      • oasisaimlessly 4 hours ago
        NBR = nitrile butadiene rubber, a synthetic rubber. Not really a raw material, as it's synthesized.
      • RetroTechie 3 hours ago
        With all the chemical industry already in the US, and $1B to throw at it, production capacity for the raw material couldn't be included?

        It's not like you need a metric ton of it to produce a box of gloves.

        • wildzzz 2 hours ago
          The issue is that domestic sources of NBR are few because of the type of petroleum extraction we do here. This makes the cost of NBR relatively high and consequently makes the gloves pricey compared to imported ones. We can definitely make.a glove but no one wants to buy them.
    • roysting 4 hours ago
      Yes. Next question
      • rileymat2 1 hour ago
        Why is it so simple? Instead of investing billions, perhaps a stockpile is a better strategy.
        • roysting 35 minutes ago
          That would be a good thing for you to research to build an understanding for the scale of what you are simplifying. Here's a start; just alone during a rather non-pandemic of 2020-2022 the USA alone used about 1.8 billion, with a B, gloves per week ... week.
    • rasz 38 minutes ago
      nah, you can always import from friendly nations like Denmark, Spain, Canada, Mexico..
    • like_any_other 2 hours ago
      It should be able to. A country that can't, cannot hope to remain sovereign in anything but name, for long.
    • Hikikomori 4 hours ago
      1-200% tariff applied at random if you don't.
      • looksjjhg 4 hours ago
        The US started the tariff game btw
        • Hikikomori 4 hours ago
          That is what I'm referring to.
  • Alien1Being 3 hours ago
    Decline and Fall of the American Empire

    https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/decline-and-fall-of-the-a...

    On the other hand the US is still very good at bombing small, poor countries...

  • jongjong 2 hours ago
    In most of the west, technically talented people are fully subjugated to suits so I'm not surprised.

    Sometimes, there are brief moments when technical people are given the control they need to deliver... But after a few years, they are again subjugated to MBAs in suits again and the capacity is lost.

    I see this constantly nowadays. As a technical person, there are many companies/roles where the constraints set you up for failure from the beginning. I've delivered some very complex projects but I've also worked at jobs on far simpler projects where I knew since day 1 that the project wouldn't pan out due to counter-productive technical constraints being imposed... but you know the company is well positioned in the financial system and that the outcome won't matter; so you take the job anyway. You still get the high pay and the prestige from the brand name. There are many companies like this where people seem to keep failing upwards and stock price always goes up.

    • orphereus 2 hours ago
      Shouldn't free market reward companies that go the other way and where people don't "fail upwards"? It is kind of demoralising to think otherwise, but it seems it is true.

      We see it everywhere. Bad companies making bad decisions keep surviving, and actually the vast majority of companies are like this.

      One implication is that MBAs in suits that make bad decisions are actually right and their decisions are not bad. The other implication is that there is no free market, no meritocracy and the truth is, game was rigged from the start.

      Edit: I should add that most of this is anegdotal evidence and a general feeling I have. It is not a very powerful argument I'm making.

      • inigyou 2 hours ago
        The market rewards companies that know how to play the market, and the market isn't a free market.
      • mrkeen 2 hours ago
        The market does reward proficiency. We live in the punished timeline. No contradiction. Most software is buggy and most businesses fail.
        • orphereus 2 hours ago
          What does punished timeline mean?
          • mrkeen 1 hour ago
            It's the corollary to your statement about the market rewarding competent companies.

            The market punishes incompetent companies.

            Just being aware that the market rewards competent companies is not enough to magically turn companies competent.

      • jongjong 2 hours ago
        I agree, a free market would work that way... Yet 'fail upwards' and zombie companies seem to be the default. Personally I don't believe that what we have in the west is a free market. I think these days, it's probably less free than the one in China. The market here is completely smothered by regulations.

        For example, about a month ago, I saw a video about people farming frogs in China... To collect secretions for medical use. At first I thought WTF. But then they mentioned how much it sells for and I thought "Wow. We have a lot of cane toads here everywhere, it would be a great business to do here." I actually started thinking of doing this... This is really out there for me because I'm a software engineer; but I started seriously considering this. But guess what? I did my research and turns out it's illegal to do it in my country (Australia) because the frog secretions would be considered an illicit substance and you need to go through some expensive process to obtain a license. Yes, you need a license to farm frogs...

        A few weeks back, I read news about someone who got arrested for farming cockroaches (as reptile food for zoos)... It's like all the entry-point business opportunities have become illegal.

        Every time I heard of a case like this where some really good niche business opportunity is illegal in Australia, I asked my AI if this practice is legal in China and the answer is almost always yes.

        The other day, I was watching a documentary about Philippines and I saw a kind of makeshift resort built literally on top of a coral reef. Really amazing looking. They seemed to be getting good reviews and actually making money... This would NEVER be allowed in my country. At best, you could purchase a ship for millions of dollars then apply for expensive licenses, then you'd have limits on how many people you can take at a time, etc... So many constraints and regulations. Such artificially high capital requirements. It would be a worse experience and less profitable; and you'd have to be filthy rich just to get a chance to engage in that highly constrained, mediocre business activity.

        • xyzzy123 1 hour ago
          I like your moxie and I also agree Australia is an over-regulated racket... but I'm also glad my neighbours aren't mass farming frogs or cockroaches in my suburb without talking to the council first.

          My brother had a neighbour build a crematorium next door in NZ; not an industrial or rural area, just the suburbs, no permits, no consultation, no notification. Very entrepreneurial. They got shut down but the flip side of "you can just do things" is surprises like a plume of smoke and the smell of burning corpses when you step outside.

        • LadyCailin 2 hours ago
          “Overhead to starting businesses” is not the only metric to take into account though. I’m not going to defend any given regulation necessarily, but your ad reductum fallacy is to think that’s the ONLY factor that must be considered. Consumer protection, environmental protection, worker protection, etc, etc, all can and should be taken into account in the calculus for regulations. Besides, many problems with starting a business come from monopolistic practices, not regulation, and reducing regulations will just make it cheaper for the mega corporation to keep their monopoly, at the cost of all these other factors.

          So anyone who just goes “grr, regulation bad”, I can’t take seriously. If you have specific examples of regulations that are objectively bad, and should be removed, that’s fine, but the examples you cited protect something else, and ignoring that is intellectually dishonest at best, and blatantly partisan at worst.

  • matchbok3 2 hours ago
    Whether the US can make "gloves" is actually less interesting than whether the US even has the technical ability, infrastructure, and knowledge to spin up a glove factory in an emergency. Just like drones, batter tech, etc. Another area where the current admin is failing, and putting our country behind China.
  • swarnie 2 hours ago
    I do good price for you my Amerifriend

    For 500m i'll make all the gloves you want, we can slap as many X's on the size as you desire/require.

    Let me know. Waiting for your call.

  • lthi747 2 hours ago
    Am I the only one, that can’t read the article because it requires subscription?
    • CoastalCoder 2 hours ago
      One of the comments provides an archive link to the story.

      I was kind of able to read that on my Android phone, but something on the page made panning really janky so I gave up.

  • vaxsupport3333 3 hours ago
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