Labor Is a Market Distortion, we need VAT and UBI

(wilsoniumite.com)

12 points | by Wilsoniumite 4 hours ago

10 comments

  • CuriouslyC 1 hour ago
    We're not going to get economic change until the people revolt. This doesn't need to be a revolt with guns and bombs, it could just be a refusal to pay taxes and to purchase things. The US has shown that it's extremely vulnerable to economic warfare given how little slack there is in the system for absorbing shocks, so it's the perfect avenue for asymmetric warfare.
    • Wilsoniumite 1 hour ago
      Perhaps, but this is actually a both a somewhat novel framing of the problem and of the solution. If academic economists agree with this theory and subsequently get behind it, it could be like climate change.

      Except this change isn't anti growth and is a lot simpler to fix than climate change. It can be bi-partisan, if framed right, we have to at least try.

  • kjshsh123 1 hour ago
    Labor is not a market distortion and average wages not following average productivity is not evidence that it is. In a competitive market, wages should follow marginal productivity.

    Probably what happened is America was in an increasing returns to scale part of its production function. Now it's in the diminishing returns to scale portion. If I had to guess why, it would be due to growth boundaries of cities and lack of new cities. There's no new Manhattans. Instead Manhattan has just gotten more and more expensive to live in.

    Anyway, if F(Population) is the production function, then wages should be F'(Population) and total wages should be Population.F'(Population).

    F(Population)-Population.F'(Population) is total production minus total wages and is known as economic rent.

    The right thing to do would be to tax economic rent. Use a tax on land value and natural resources to fund UBI.

    • Wilsoniumite 1 hour ago
      That's true, I think the real problem is a liiiiittle more nuanced than just the great stagnation. But that's the graph people know. The issue can be read out in more detail from other graphs too, I'm working on an updated piece. I mention georgism at the end of the piece as well.

      But do you agree with the theoretical framing? People not being able to not work forces them to find something. It's like an iron ore deposit being forced to be mined rather than being mined when it's needed?

      • kjshsh123 1 hour ago
        I don't really. It smells to me like the lump of labor fallacy. Labor participation results from supply and demand and it going down does not necessarily indicate less demand, but can also indicate less supply. That's what you'd expect as countries and the world become wealthier. Leisure is a normal good.
        • Wilsoniumite 46 minutes ago
          That's fair, they seem similar at first glance.

          The difference is that we are asking the economy to create jobs even when it doesn't "want" to. It still will, the lump of labor fallacy is indeed a fallacy, but that doesn't mean this isn't causing a lot of harm.

          We aren't draining the earth's oceans (yet) because its supply is more than the earth needs right now. One day we might, but how much we draw is decided by the economy.

          But for labor supply is forced, capital flows there when it shouldn't, politics chases it. The economy, ever adaptable, provides jobs where it can.

  • pseudalopex 46 minutes ago
    You submitted this article with another title 6 days ago.[1]

    [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48434114

  • bob001 1 hour ago
    Isn't VAT generally a regressive tax so does the exact opposite of what the author thinks it does? The rich spend less versus their income than other demographics. I guess the UBI is to offset that but that just doesn't seem like a stable system.
    • tumdum_ 1 hour ago
      The author addresses this exact concern.
      • bob001 1 hour ago
        The same way a random redditor addresses concerns about their proof of Riemann Hypothesis.
  • PowerElectronix 1 hour ago
    I'd say a better alternative to taxes and handouts is to normalise and incentivise to give a stake in the company/business to every worker.

    It's the only reasonable way to avoid the main flaws of our economy/society. Billionaires would be way worse off, as they won't freely reap the fruit of the labor of the workers that power their ideas, and the workers will be way better off, as their productivity is no longer decoupled with their pay.

    • Wilsoniumite 1 hour ago
      I agree, and in some sense I argue this at the end, but I didn't want to make the piece even longer.

      In fact if you look at the economics of this policy over the long term it leaks capital through rents, so it doesn't actually work forever.

      A sovereign wealth fund can solve this (essentially an expansion of the "buffer" I wrote about). That functions as almost exactly what you want, giving a stake in every company to every worker (except broader, to every citizen).

      If you buy the framing that labor is currently a distortion, you wouldn't want to only give stakes in companies to workers of those companies, if you do that the distortion will continue.

    • ghthor 1 hour ago
      There is something to be said here, the government may be democratic but almost all of us are subservient to fascist corporations. Employee owned companies is a great start to get out of this mess
  • lelanthran 1 hour ago
    > Why VAT?

    > This is a little harder but not too hard: Because it’s the mirror of UBI. The UBI will fund consumption, VAT taxes consumption.

    This is dumb; there's literally no other way to put it!

    VAT is a tax exemption on the rich; that's all it is.

    • mort96 1 hour ago
      100%, VAT is a regressive tax. Poor people use a large portion of their wealth on products and services. Rich people use a much, much smaller portion of their wealth on those things.

      Plus rich people all have companies pay for a lot of their stuff. Need a new laptop? Buy it through your company. Internet and cellular plan? Company. New cell phone? Company. Many even have their cars paid by an compaby. All those purchases through your company are VAT exempt. Poor people buy their own laptops and their own cell phones and have their own Internet subscription and cell plan and car. They pay the VAT.

      I'm in Norway, where the standard VAT rate is at 25%. I don't understand how such a vast regressive tax is so uncontroversial here. Get rid of it and replace it with a larger wealth and capital gains tax.

  • jmclnx 1 hour ago
    What is needed are enforceable laws that force companies to pay a living wage. The wage paid is based upon the cost of living in various US metro regions. The wage must be updated every 6 months. And we need a single payer health system.

    Plus a type of tax that forces the ultra-rich to pay, if needed, a wealth tax that some countries are enabling.

    • bob001 1 hour ago
      That works only as long as people are employed and there are enough jobs to employ people. Simplest solution for a company is to outsource or automate jobs away as much as possible. After a couple years customers will adjust to the new norm even if it's a worse experience for them.
  • b3ing 3 hours ago
    Keep dreaming, we are in hyper capitalism mode, ebshitification, etc. They just spent weeks of government time state and national worrying about people on food stamps buying candy or coke, to save pennies, they watch the poor like a damn hawk but let millionaires rape children in the biggest pedo ring in history.
    • Wilsoniumite 3 hours ago
      That's a very sad outlook.

      This problem is hard because it's hard to spot, but the fix is actually surprisingly easy (at least in the short term).

      The scale is on the order of climate change. If the academic base of economists were to unify behind this theory, change could happen. Only a few countries need to adopt this to show merit to the idea (although, that will take like a decade to truly show). Unlike climate change though this isn't fighting growth, it can recover it, and it's much, much easier to implement. That's why I think it can be truly bipartisan.

  • julienreszka 1 hour ago
    the diagnosis has data behind it, but the proposed mechanism doesn’t, by your own admission
  • 3683826312819 1 hour ago
    [dead]