39 comments

  • ggm 5 hours ago
    The point is not just that he's blinded by the flag: He's boldly marching into the void, confident. "wrapped in the flag" is a great saying.
    • ua709 5 hours ago
      Worse than a void because a void is not necessarily bad. Walking “off a cliff” rarely ends well.
      • freedomben 3 hours ago
        Agree, but that's what we know. The man in the statue is walking into a void from his perspective because he lacks knowledge of his true predicament and is blindly marching forward.
    • ninjagoo 2 hours ago
      > He's boldly marching into the void

      into the void, or off the edge?

      "off the edge" is a clear interpretation of the statue. "into the void" is a bit more of a stretch. IMHO.

      But that's art for you. Everyone has their own take on it.

      • esjeon 2 hours ago
        I guess “void” here is a bit more like a place you can’t even see (because of the flag).
    • EnPissant 4 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • bogdan 3 hours ago
        I have no idea what you're on about
        • analog8374 3 hours ago
          He's suggesting that there are several flavors of blindness going around so if we're going to point fingers then we might start with ourselves.
          • danparsonson 3 hours ago
            ...which is a blatant false equivalence, to be clear.
            • analog8374 1 hour ago
              I think it's a pretty good equivalence, actually. And pretty good advice. Passionate certainty should raise a red flag.
              • dijksterhuis 1 hour ago
                i find that passionate certainty can be a good thing in some cases, especially when someone really does know what they are talking about.

                but fanaticism is more often a problem than not. fanatics tend to not really understand what they're talking about, or twist it to fit what they want it to be about.

                > Fanaticism: Excessive enthusiasm, unreasoning zeal, or wild and extravagant notions, on any subject, especially religion, politics or ideology; religious frenzy.

                note -- not talking about any particular "thing" here. just commenting about passion vs. fanaticism in general.

              • danparsonson 1 hour ago
                The equivalence between supporting the rights of oppressed minorities, and inciting violence towards foreigners, is a good one?
  • forgotusername6 5 hours ago
    I think it's a reasonable statue. But does anyone else think it's a bit obvious, more so than his other work? Like there is no doubt on the meaning at all, it's all right there on the surface level.
    • hn_throwaway_99 2 hours ago
      Strong disagree. First, like many of the other comments mention, Banksy is known for being clever and witty, but not particularly subtle.

      But more to the point, while you may think the meaning is a bit obvious, the fact that the flag is unadorned (which/whose flag is it?), and the man is unknown, makes me think this statue could be the ultimate Rorschach test. I'm sure there are tons of people thinking "Ha ha, this is the perfect commentary on all those idiot <people on the other side who I disagree with> wrapping themselves up in their ideology of <patriotism/social justice/cause du jour> as they march <some particular country/society/the world at large off a cliff>".

      In other words, I'm guessing you probably felt the meaning was "obvious" because you filled in the blanks in the above madlibs-style statement in a way that feels obvious to you, and I think folks on "the other side" would probably fill in the blanks with the exact opposite notions in a way that feels "obvious" to them.

      • squigz 2 hours ago
        The ambiguity - that this could apply to anyone, that people are so caught up in their belief of choice - is part of the obviousness, at least to me. I would expect more people to be aware of this, than to actually believe that it's talking about, say, Americans in particular.
      • arduanika 37 minutes ago
        > the fact that the flag is unadorned (which/whose flag is it?), and the man is unknown, makes me think this statue could be the ultimate Rorschach test

        This is part of what's obvious. The whole thing, including this oooh aahh Rorschach part, is obvious. It's thoughts that we all had in high school, and it is hack.

        • leourbina 32 minutes ago
          And yet here here we all are taking about it. Art is about inciting a response, and he’s done it. Whether we think he’s a hack or not is irrelevant - he has the world’s attention.
          • arduanika 18 minutes ago
            He defaced a major urban center with trite idiocy, possibly with state approval. Of course it's a topic for discussion. It was forced upon Britons, and forced upon the public square. We are welcome to spell out why it sucks.

            > Art is about inciting a response

            Is art about anything else to you, or is this all?

            > Whether we think he’s a hack or not is irrelevant

            Of course the quality of the piece is relevant! Consider developing taste. Consider developing even the vaguest desire to develop taste.

      • throwaway894345 2 hours ago
        I'm guessing most would assume this is about nationalists, and I don't think even the nationalists would imagine Banksy is on their side?
      • gerdesj 2 hours ago
        The flag is unadorned and I think you can extend your interpretation to include the proliferation of flags which have a minimal "history".

        Banksy is from Bris'l which is sort of north Somerset (Somerset keeps on morphing faster than a sci-fi shapeshifter).

        Cornwall has had a white cross on a black flag since 18something. Devon decided to adopt a black edged white cross on a green flag. I remember seeing Devon flag car stickers in the '80s - its a little older than that. Somerset now has ... a flag. Yellow and red I think.

        No idea why because people can't decide what it is! The land itself knows exactly what and where it is but the political boundaries ebb and flow with the phases of the moon. Is Avon included ... what is Avon? Ooh, BANES - Somerset? Not today thank you. It goes on. Anyway, do Devon and Somerset and co really need a flag? No of course not.

        What we really need is a Wessex flag, which will take over Mercia ... and a few other regional efforts ... and end up as a red cross on a white background. Then we could munge that with a couple of other flags and confuse the entire world with something called the Union Flag.

        Then we can really get complicated ... hi Hawaii!

    • tene80i 5 hours ago
      Not sure we think of Banksy as being particularly subtle. Innovative and impactful, sure - but the message is usually quite clear, no?
      • morkalork 4 hours ago
        It's always been about as subtle as a sledge hammer
        • EGreg 4 hours ago
          He started with literally graffiti. So sure - not subtle!!
          • filoleg 1 hour ago
            Not gonna lie, I am not sure how the choice of medium here (graffiti) has anything to do with how subtle (or not) the message of an art piece is.
            • morkalork 1 hour ago
              There's a well known theory on this exact concept! The Medium is the Message. Or, the very act of defacing a public building is meant to sledge-hammer the artist's work into the viewer's consciousness. Compared to say, some quiet exhibit most people would never encounter.
      • ares623 3 hours ago
        Our first exposure to Banksy was when we were hitting puberty. We probably thought they were subtle back then.
    • tialaramex 5 hours ago
      I don't think most of his work is trying for subtle? First thing that came to mind: "Slave Labour" is pretty obvious, it's a kid operating a sewing machine to make Union flags and it was painted on an actual pound shop. Were you unsure of the message? Even something like "Silent Majority" isn't difficult, the comic book "V for Vendetta" makes the exact same point just Banksy painted it as a mural.
      • ChoGGi 2 hours ago
        Pound shop == dollar store

        I suppose I should've figured that one out.

    • EMM_386 4 hours ago
      > "in September 2025, Banksy painted a mural on the Royal Courts of Justice depicting a judge bludgeoning a protester with a gavel"

      His other works aren't subtle.

    • hristov 53 minutes ago
      If you want to make a political message it often helps to be obvious. This way the meaning of your message will not be misinterpreted either intentionally or un-intentionally.
      • at-fates-hands 35 minutes ago
        His messages were always the same politically. He was always snubbing his nose at the crown, at the art world and other rich folks who would pay millions of pounds for his art. Back in the day when I discovered him, he came off as a rebel, as most graffiti writers do.

        Now? He makes millions off his work while still thumbing his nose at capitalism? Doesn't ring the same any more. You can't claim to be fighting against the same system that you use to make millions.

        • solenoid0937 30 minutes ago
          > You can't claim to be fighting against the same system that you use to make millions.

          You absolutely can though. This is a false dichotomy.

    • tbrownaw 5 hours ago
      > there is no doubt on the meaning at all

      Which flag? Or, what kind of flag? Or does it matter?

      • kergonath 4 hours ago
        It does not matter. Any ideology can be followed blindly to one’s ruin. Nationalism is common, but there are others.
      • indy 4 hours ago
        "The LGBTQIA flag obviously"

        "It's clearly the national flag"

      • blitzar 4 hours ago
        the kind that flag shaggers shag
      • Ancapistani 4 hours ago
        I’d say what matters is whether it matters to you. What difference does it make in the outcome?
      • Findecanor 3 hours ago
        Why could it not mean multiple flags at once?
      • MattGaiser 4 hours ago
        Flags overwhelmingly represent nations, groups considering themselves nations, that were nations or have some kind of individual governmental status.

        If you asked 100 people to imagine a particular flag to attach to that statue, 95% of them are going to be current, unrecognized, or former states.

      • wartywhoa23 5 hours ago
        It is universal. The flag, the state, the man. Details don't matter.
    • thinkingemote 5 hours ago
      it gets people talking which many of those who like it consider to be the primary point. In other words, it's not great public art, it's basically government approved engagement bait or engineered pro-establishment viral messaging and it's very successful at that! (but it doesn't inspire and elevate that art should aspire to)
      • nickthegreek 5 hours ago
        > engineered pro-establishment viral messaging

        I don’t understand this. What speaks pro-establishment in this piece?

        • chroma 3 hours ago
          It was installed in the middle of a street owned by the government. Police are guarding it to prevent vandalism or removal. Both the Westminster City Council and the Mayor of London have praised the statue and called for it to be preserved.[1][2]

          If the man holding the flag had been wearing a thawb instead of a suit, or if the statue had been of a woman, I think the establishment's response would be quite different.

          1. From https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y9wlnwl85o "We're excited to see Banksy's latest sculpture in Westminster, making a striking addition to the city's vibrant public art scene. While we have taken initial steps to protect the statue, at this time it will remain accessible for the public to view and enjoy."

          2. From https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/30/world/europe/banksy-londo... "Banksy has a great ability to inspire people from a range of backgrounds to enjoy modern art. His work always draws great interest and debate, and the mayor is hopeful that his latest piece can be preserved for Londoners and visitors to enjoy."

        • teekert 5 hours ago
          If one can read this as pro-establishment, it's proof that the the art is indeed not so obvious as suggested above :)
        • pirate787 3 hours ago
          In the UK the establishment is generally unsettled by the display of the English flag.

          https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/29/uk/st-george-flag-england...

          • overfeed 2 hours ago
            Regional chauvinism is never good for a healthy union. Even if it were the Union Jack, flag-shaggers are almost always blood and soil zealots.
            • chroma 1 hour ago
              I think a small level of it is fine. It’s like sports teams. You can be a Giants fan and I can be a Yankees fan, and we’ll bicker & make fun of each other for supporting a different team. But we can still work together & be civil when it comes to lots of other stuff.
    • Jtarii 5 hours ago
      I think a good old fashined "we are all fucked" is warranted now and again.

      It's also referencing the recent flag controversies in the UK over the past year.

    • wand3r 5 hours ago
      Certainly in America but all over the west, people are significantly less capable of media literacy. Sometimes the obvious needs to be said.
      • kergonath 4 hours ago
        > Certainly in America but all over the west, people are significantly less capable of media literacy.

        Not sure if you are serious, but my experience is the exact opposite…

    • ungreased0675 4 hours ago
      This one definitely lacks ambition compared to other works. Probably because his other work had a subversive undertone, this one seems sponsored by the powers that be. I also suspect it was installed with cooperation from the local authorities.
      • fooqux 3 hours ago
        I think you took a wildly different interpretation of this art than I did.
      • BoggleOhYeah 4 hours ago
        The “powers that be” hate ideology?
    • seydor 4 hours ago
      it's less than mediocre art. Using the following statue from Temu for vandalism would be a stronger art statement: https://www.temu.com/1pc-3d-printed-bride-sculpture-elegant-...
    • BoggleOhYeah 3 hours ago
      Have you seen the state of the world? Why would you go through the trouble of being subtle nowadays?
    • zeroonetwothree 5 hours ago
      Yes doesn’t feel very innovative
      • vscode-rest 5 hours ago
        Do know know of any “prior art”, so to speak?
    • LightBug1 4 hours ago
      He's always been one to land a one-liner, or just a punch line.

      Sadly, in this day and age, that simple one-punch obvious meaning is just what's needed.

    • mindslight 5 hours ago
      Well the problems it's referencing are glaringly obvious as well, and yet so many people still refuse to acknowledge them.
    • twoodfin 5 hours ago
      I have the same reaction to Banksy, and figure he and his audience just have to be in on the joke? I can’t discount there’s some layered irony going on in conversation between the artist and the intellectual / capitalist / trend-setting elite that are his effective patrons.

      “I remember when all this was trees” [1] is maybe the best example. Detroit hasn’t been “trees” in something like two centuries. Platitudes doused in treacle.

      [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/10/01/ba...

      • defrost 2 hours ago
        A better example of a knowing joke between artist and establishment would be the auction of a Banksy work on paper poised above and within the jaws of a paper shredder .. that was then half shredded on the fall of the hammer and sale.

        For clarity, the shredder was part of the work and the sale was of the half destroyed piece along with shredder and chaff.

    • kiney 2 hours ago
      all his work is slop. No difference here...
    • kibwen 4 hours ago
      [dead]
    • dahdum 5 hours ago
      [dead]
    • lukebechtel 4 hours ago
      [dead]
    • aaron695 1 hour ago
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  • schoen 5 hours ago
    I misparsed this headline as

    (Statue (of a man (blinded by a flag (put up by Banksy)))) in central London

    It is intended to be

    ((Statue (of a man (blinded by a flag))) (put up by Banksy)) in central London

    • tolerance 5 hours ago
      The actual headline is more coherent but I'm not too fond of it either.

      You really don't see any good ol' fashioned short and sweet headlines that read best to the ear in a Mid-Atlantic accent anymore.

      • vscode-rest 5 hours ago
        Banksy erects central London statue of man blinded by flag, maybe?
        • tolerance 2 hours ago
          "BANKSY'S NO PATRIOT—SO SAYS NEW STATUE"
    • saltyoldman 4 hours ago
      I was like, that's horrible how did this flag cause someone to go blind... Did it like fall on the guy when Banksy was putting it up? oh. duh...
  • declan_roberts 4 hours ago
    Things were more fun when they were actually transgressive and not just the established doctrine of those in power.
    • _hark 4 hours ago
      Yeah. The safety of the message is underwritten by its state sanction.
  • CapitalistCartr 2 hours ago
    I have a hardhat, high viz vest, lanyard, and $600 toolbelt because I'm an industrial electrician, but they get me into a lot. My face becomes invisible; I become "The Electrician".
    • nullc 1 hour ago
      The free coffee is a nice bonus.
  • wartywhoa23 5 hours ago
    Banksy's "anonymity" is a total farce at this point, thoroughly supported by those in power.
    • Lerc 4 hours ago
      I'm not sure what you mean by "Those in power" there are lot's of people who know, but recognise that he has chosen anonymity and see no value in putting a name to the person.

      It's not so much a secret as it is simply not public.

    • qingcharles 1 hour ago
      Good. I'm glad most of the media have come to a gentlemen's agreement to not blast his name everywhere. Adds a little more fun to the world. Even this statute is staying for now, the local council, bless them, have decided to leave it in place for the near future.
      • ytoawwhra92 1 hour ago
        Reuters published a lengthy "unmasking" in March of this year and nobody really cared.

        I think his name not being blasted everywhere has more to do with it being thoroughly uninteresting than any gentlemen's agreement.

    • toyg 4 hours ago
      Who cares? Are you similarly triggered by The Rock or Alemao? Banksy is Banksy.
    • axus 4 hours ago
      Tracking Bansky is a favorite spy software sales demo given to authoritarian governments.
    • badgersnake 4 hours ago
      The point appears to have whizzed a couple of feet over your head.
  • nickthegreek 5 hours ago
    The piece states that it appears to be molded fiberglass. But is anyone aware of any more in depth analysis of its materials/possible production technique? Was the pillar barren on top before?
    • ZeroGravitas 4 hours ago
      The pillar is fiberglass too, I believe.

      There's a (mostly terrible) documentary about a previous bansky "statue" deposited in London that, in one of its better moments, tracks down the people who actually make statues for artists like banksy.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Banksy_Job

      edit: I feel I should clarify that this is not an official Banksy documentary. He made "Exit Through the Gift Shop" which is an amazing film which I highly recommend to anyone.

      • Animats 3 hours ago
        Aw, it's Fiberglas? Not bronze and stone?

        The Wall Street Bull was a guerilla art piece too. It's a real bronze. Weighs about three metric tons. It's hugely popular, although it's been moved a few times. Banksy's work should be replicated in bronze and stone and placed permanently.

  • seydor 5 hours ago
    Anyone else leaving up a huge statue in the middle of the park would be arrested
    • SamBam 1 hour ago
      Presumably Banksy and associates would have been arrested too if they had been caught. This whole thing relies on doing it in a way that people don't question it while it's happening.
  • periodjet 5 hours ago
    Banksy is the patron saint of the “I’m 13 and this is deep” mentality.
    • TehCorwiz 5 hours ago
      "Blinded by nationalism" I don't know, seems like a clear concise message that has relevance in today's world.
      • miketery 4 hours ago
        Why nationalism? A flag can represent more than a nation. Can be blinded by any "flag" / ideology.
        • wrxd 4 hours ago
          • philk10 4 hours ago
            I went back to England last year and couldn't believe how many flags there were, I was shocked and not in a good way
            • nephihaha 3 hours ago
              Every criticism levelled at the St. George's Cross can be levelled at the Union Jack. It is time people in England had a healthier relationship with their flag, more like Scotland and Wales, and less like Northern Ireland.
              • actionfromafar 3 hours ago
                St. George's Cross is football brawls and "England uber alles". Union Jack is stiff upper lip and kicking nazis out of Europe.
                • nephihaha 2 hours ago
                  It was the flag of the British Empire with all that entails. It is to be found all over the loyalist areas of Northern Ireland and on Orange Marches. It has appeared in umpteen far right demos, and in fact if you look at 1970s far right footage you can see it is the flag they most commonly carry in the UK not the St. George's Cross.

                  Oh, and you'll find it at plenty of football matches, notably Glasgow Rangers, who fly it while singing songs about wanting to be "up to our knees in Fenian blood".

        • adolph 4 hours ago
          The ambiguity is part of the charm. Something that reveals more about the beholders than the artist makes for stimulating conversation and discovery.

          Even the new positioning of the art on a plinth in some open space is enigmatic. If it were a critique of the powers that be, why would officialdom collaborate in propping it up?

        • delusional 4 hours ago
          Interpretations, in my art?

          Seriously, this is part of the fun of art. Neither of you are wrong for reading different messages into it.

        • MattGaiser 4 hours ago
          Flags overwhelmingly represent nations, groups considering themselves nations, that were nations or have some kind of individual governmental status.
          • lucketone 4 hours ago
            Nations != governments.

            “Nations” as synonym for country started appearing only recently, in last two/three hundred years.

            Flags have thousands of years of history.

          • kergonath 4 hours ago
            Flags also represent causes, or groups that don’t aspire to becoming a nation.
          • nephihaha 3 hours ago
            They don't at all. Consider for example that every single city, county and local council in the UK has a flag. There are flags for the United Nations, the European Union, Esperanto, every major football team and most political movements including the CND and anarchism.
      • socalgal2 1 hour ago
        How do you know it's "blinded by nationalism"? There are plenty of non-national flags which are just as blinding
      • hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 4 hours ago
        Is it though? This can mean anything. Is waving a Palestinian flag the same as waving an Israeli flag? Where do we draw the line between harmful and productive nationalism? Who exactly is blinded by nationalism?

        It is vague enough to appear deep to those trying to find something deep but not concrete enough to appear as anything that will stick in people's minds for more than a week. Unfortunately a lot of modern art is like this.

        • JuniperMesos 3 hours ago
          > Is it though? This can mean anything. Is waving a Palestinian flag the same as waving an Israeli flag? Where do we draw the line between harmful and productive nationalism? Who exactly is blinded by nationalism?

          Clearly it depends on your actual object-level position on the Israel/Palestine conflict. Or in general, what specific nationalisms you mean when you talk about being "blinded by nationalism".

          And that's the main reason why I think this is a mediocre piece of art. Very few people actually are genuinely anti-nationalist for all possible human groups that have some sense of themselves as a nation. All anti-nationalist rhetoric is implicitly aimed at a specific nationalism that someone has a problem with - and also everyone knows this. So everyone wants to use the blank slate of bansky's featureless flag as a canvas upon which to paint a nationalism they don't like in order to discredit it. And I personally think that's boring. Maybe engendering that reaction was itself part of Bansky's artistic vision, but I still don't think that makes for good art.

        • kergonath 3 hours ago
          > Is waving a Palestinian flag the same as waving an Israeli flag?

          Waving a flag is not a problem in itself. You can be proud of being part of whatever group you like and not hurt anyone. The problem is when the flag becomes the prism through which you see the world. Or, as the statue puts it, when you’re blinded by it.

        • cm2012 4 hours ago
          Both Israel and Palestine are blinded by ideology. It is a very common failure mode for people.
          • hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 4 hours ago
            [flagged]
            • lukan 4 hours ago
              So ... Hamas does not want to do ethnic cleansing and attempted that a couple of times, but simply were not as powerful to have a bigger impact?
              • t-3 4 hours ago
                Resistance to illegal occupation and colonization isn't ethnic cleansing, it's a legal right as ruled by every international body since Israel was formed. Totally false equivalence.
                • lukan 4 hours ago
                  If you want to remove a certain set of people from land (people who were born there btw.) you are engaging in ethnic cleansing. The definition is clear here.
          • runarberg 3 hours ago
            When one is a colony of the other the flag of the colonized has added symbol of decolonization. The flag of the colonizers has no such symbol, quite the contrary in fact. These two flags are clearly distinct.
        • garyfirestorm 4 hours ago
          waving any flag and thinking its us or them is equally blinding. the world is not vacuum and to coexist we need to put flags behind and work together.
    • have_faith 5 hours ago
      Are you from the UK and know what the piece is a reference to? It’s topical and unpretentious and comes at a time where the country is splintering. Feels a like a bit of a distant midwit take to take shots at the appeal it has.
      • andai 4 hours ago
        Explain like I'm 13 and don't live in the UK.
      • hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 4 hours ago
        Splintering? You have two zombie parties that are really the same in different colours. Of course people are going to vote for other parties that seem more left/right wing. Predictable consequence.
        • danparsonson 3 hours ago
          Splintering because some are going one way and others are going the opposite direction. Heading to opposite extremes.
    • Fezzik 4 hours ago
      Most galvanizing statements have been pithy and comprehensible to 13 year olds. The general population is not doing a deep dive in to something like Thoreau’s “Resistance to Civil Government,” contemplating the proper role of government, and then getting fired up to act. We need CliffsNotes, slogans, and visible art like this.
    • ryandrake 5 hours ago
      Heaven forbid someone tries to communicate a point with art.
    • pippy 4 hours ago
      The irony is that the statue is being guarded by the London police.
      • ungreased0675 4 hours ago
        That’s not irony. It’s a pro-establishment piece. If it was a piece about migrants raping British women Banksy would be in jail right now.
        • rexpop 57 minutes ago
          Found the gammon.
    • infinitewars 5 hours ago
      I think it deserves credit for being both simple and original.
    • touwer 4 hours ago
      So, you are 14 and you understand the world? Doesn't seem like it
    • yakkomajuri 4 hours ago
      It doesn't need to be super layered to be impactful?

      Plus the execution is also part of the art.

    • CPLX 4 hours ago
      Actually it’s a great example of something different, where the person who was original and eventually becomes ubiquitous and groundbreaking and widely imitated to the point where it's hard to understand just how original they actually are.

      There are many examples of the same thing: Andy Warhol and the soup cans and screen-printed portraits with different color backgrounds or Led Zeppelin and English folk hard rock songs that have hobbits in them are two of them.

      Eventually, it's hard to even process their work in the context of how predictable and trite it seems to be a few decades later.

    • booleandilemma 3 hours ago
      Account created last year, is Banksy your patron saint?
    • stavros 4 hours ago
      This works really well these days, when the average person is 13.
    • rvba 5 hours ago
      Really riles up PE types and "patriots" though.
    • mihaaly 4 hours ago
      [dead]
    • TacticalCoder 4 hours ago
      He's also king of the "I'll criticize the west but I'll turn a blind-eye to non-democratic countries' wrongdoings". A trait shared with virtually all intellectuals and artists in the west.

      There are fights worth fighting: for example there are 300 million women alive who have undergone forced genital mutilation. 300 million ain't cheap change. There are also hundreds of millions of people who applauded the killing of 1200 young civilians who were enjoying life at a music festival "because it's resistance".

      Applauding the killing of young unarmed civilians, genitally mutilating women and turning a blind-eye to a regime slaughtering 30 000+ of its own unarmed civilians is where I personally draw the line and consider there are maybe more important things to complain about than, say, "the patriarchal western society built by heterosexual white men" or some other woke non-sense like that.

      Now to be honest Banksy did art criticizing war overall, not just war started by the west. So a generous reading could consider that he also criticizes things like the 800 000 deaths during the Hutu vs Tutsi war.

      But still overall: lots of balls from western artists when it's about criticizing the west, but tiny tiny nuts when it's about, say, attacking the ideology that is responsible for 300 people enjoying music at the Bataclan and then getting slaughtered.

      But these people can live with their own conscience: I speak up and I've got mine.

      • constantius 4 hours ago
        That's a lot of imaginary flaws in imaginary people, with imaginary numbers as scaffolding.

        The moral posture you're criticising is not actually a thing, I personally don't know of any Western intellectual who criticises the West but is fine with FGM for example. But it seems that the fault you find in them is that when they criticise the West, for example, they don't also add a list of grievances against all the other countries (but surely they'd have to speak for 10 hours every time they open their mouths?).

        It's also funny how you take the 30,000 Iranian civilians killed at face value, but don't talk about the wrongs of the British empire. And you didn't even mention North Korea once. You see the issue with your reqs?

      • bravoetch 4 hours ago
        Are you making art to fill that perceived gap, or just lodging your objection to people doing their own thing? No artist owes you a curriculum of your design.
      • zuminator 4 hours ago
        There's a lot wrong with the world, but it seems not unreasonable for people to more strongly critique things 1) they feel they have some responsibility for or 2) that directly impact them or 3) where their criticisms are more likely to result in positive change.
      • delusional 4 hours ago
        What do you want the artists to do about it? Part of art's power is shining a light on something we don't notice day to day. Most westeners are against mutilation, what would the art say?

        Art will always be about speaking truth to power, and that power will usually be the one closest felt. There's not much value in a swede speaking truth to Nigerian warlords.

    • vkou 5 hours ago
      This criticism would carry more weight if the people this statue criticises had the intellectual and emotional maturity beyond that of a teenager.

      Unfortunately, they often don't meet that bar, so the message has to be in a form they can understand.

      • 9dev 5 hours ago
        "They'd be pretty angry if they could read"
      • krapp 4 hours ago
        You're being downvoted but honestly the "everyone is twelve now" meme explains our collective societal dysfunction perfectly.

        There's no point to complexity or subtlety in art anymore, or even any kind of symbolism at all. Anything that needs to be interpreted, that doesn't have a single objective meaning which gets spelled out for you. Flag man is silly. Everyone is twelve now.

        • Lerc 4 hours ago
          Lana Wachowski has said that the Red Pill movement taught her that no matter how unsubtle you are, it's still too subtle for some people.
          • tialaramex 3 hours ago
            Huh. I hadn't thought about how the "Red Pill movement" would feel for the Wachowskis, yeah, there's truly no limit to how oblivious people can be and this thread is illustrative.
        • toomanyrichies 3 hours ago
          100%. One can't advocate for the dismantling of the Dept. of Education, the tearing down of "educational elites", and the wholesale banning of books, while at the same time crying foul when people say they have the intellectual capacity of a 12-year-old.
    • jiriro 4 hours ago
      > Banksy is the patron saint of the “I’m 13 and this is deep” mentality.

      You are wrong.

    • odyssey7 5 hours ago
      Maybe, but in 100 years, people looking back on the current era will easily understand the work. It symbolically communicates something about the spirit of the age.
  • tommica 5 hours ago
    Yeah, definetly had the city agree to it, no way in hell to sneak a statue like that without the cops getting involved.
    • robocat 3 hours ago
      Apparently not:

        Westminster City Council has told the BBC it did not grant permission, as it was not given advance warning that Banksy's team was planning this installation.
      
      https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn4pvyw82exo

      Council permits are usually quite public (in my country). Sneaking it in becomes part of the artwork.

    • vscode-rest 5 hours ago
      The trick is not to sneak it. Hi Viz and some yellow flashing lights. Couple smooth talkers.
    • gib444 5 hours ago
      Agreed. Also why it's totally inoffensive

      (Though it's not in /the/ City of London. That wouldn't happen in a million years! City of Westminster is way more culturally flexible)

      • tialaramex 4 hours ago
        It doesn't make sense in the City. Waterloo Place, where he put this, has a bunch of statues already for tourists to gawp at, just now as well as "Bloke on a Horse who was an important military leader" there's this guy stepping off his plinth because the flag blocks him from seeing what's in front of him.

        The City is dead at night. If an artist wants to put art there, they'd just as somebody else said, dress up like they are workmen and be fine.

      • peteri 4 hours ago
        I dunno they were flexible with the Piranha art work displaying it in the guildhall temporarily.

        https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2qz89nk11o

    • encom 4 hours ago
      Banksy (Robin Gunningham) is the most mainstream establishment artist, while thinks himself a counter-culture revolutionary. That's what makes him so cringe. He's just another champagne socialist.
      • phba 2 hours ago
        Not just him, but all the people in his cultural sphere. I've been to a Banksy exhibition, and it also had videos of "critics" commenting on his work. The overtone was how inspiring and brave it is to protest things like war and injustice nowadays in a western country. It's repulsive how ignorant these people are towards their own privilege, while taking the moral high ground and lecturing others.

        And of course there was a fucking gift shop at the end.

      • hristov 36 minutes ago
        Reminds me of this great Steward Lee quote (paraphrasing from memory): "When I was young a lot of people accused me of being a champagne socialist. If they only knew how wrong they were. I was a cocaine communist!"

        Criticizing someone of being popular is just a way to silence them. If they are popular then they are "cringe", and if they are unpopular, they can be safely ignored and that statue would have been removed by the police and forgotten without any news coverage.

        Banksy may be popular, but he is not completely establishment, because well look at the statue. Its an obvious critique of the Iran war, and yet the Iran war still grinds on and UK bases continue to be used for Iran war operations. So apparently there is someone in the establishment that does not agree with Banksy. Someone boldly stepping into the void.

      • BoingBoomTschak 3 hours ago
        "The Underground is a Lie", successful version.
      • lucketone 4 hours ago
        Somebody has to enlighten mimosa-party participants about socialism.
      • Ancapistani 3 hours ago
        Perhaps, but he’s also a talented artist.

        One of my favorite contemporary musicians is a Socialist Filipino rapper who lives in LA. I can enjoy the music while finding the ideology abhorrent because they are two separate things.

  • sb057 3 hours ago
    Had this statue been erected in 2006, it would’ve been an immortal masterpiece. Had it been sculpted in 2016, it would still have been a great statue but flawed. But it was made in 2026. Alas, what can one say?
  • tristanj 3 hours ago
    I wish Banksy put the statue a block away at the roundabout at the end of Pall Mall instead. The current spot he picked already has several other statues there. The roundabout at the end of Pall Mall is empty, presently rather dull, and would look much nicer with a statue.

    This is the better spot: https://maps.app.goo.gl/6EmX2jPiaKRNtNtr8 51°30'19.0"N 0°08'16.0"W

  • dreambuffer 3 hours ago
    England has a long history producing artwork against some institution, only for that institution to get worse over time. George Orwell wrote about the dangers of authoritarianism and surveillance, and since then the UK government has only ratcheted up their surveillance and authority. They also made a movie called This is England which straightforwardly depicts young English nationalists ruining their lives with nationalism, and 20 years later there are more nationalists in England than at any point after WW2.

    Will Banksy's legacy be more or less the same?

    • ericmay 1 hour ago
      England has gotten more liberal over time, not less. I'm not following your logic here. It seems you're wanting to criticize the government of the UK for being authoritarian and ratcheting up the surveillance state, but simultaneously criticize nationalists and link them to this government, but nationalists and right-leaning groups haven't really been in charge of the UK.
    • gerdesj 3 hours ago
      "They also made a movie called This is England which straightforwardly depicts young English nationalists"

      Not sure who you think "they" are but "This is England" is superb. It deals with a lot of issues, way beyond just nationalism and the like.

      Perhaps you would like to fix your gimlet gaze on "A Clockwork Orange" and deliver a further withering critique.

      A simple explanation regarding the increase of the number of nationalists within England is the population has increased. QED.

    • vpribish 3 hours ago
      almost as if "England" is more than one person!
    • phainopepla2 2 hours ago
      This is such an odd comment. People in arts and letters warning about some element of society or culture and then that element growing in strength is something that can be found in most countries, and doesn't seem more prevalent in England than elsewhere.
  • daseiner1 4 hours ago
    seems missed in the general commentary that there is also an inherent commentary on the western tradition of “blind justice” https://i.etsystatic.com/13403651/r/il/40b0bf/6851322246/il_...
    • danparsonson 3 hours ago
      How so? The concept of the 'blindness' of justice is antithetical to blind patriotism.
  • 867-5309 2 hours ago
    holding such a large flag with one hand so high up on the pole? could easily be corrected with a lower holding position, two hands. if it did happen, the walking would cease immediately

    both the blinding and defiant fist are intentional. there is only one way to die and he controls it

  • _m_p 4 minutes ago
    Ok boomer.
  • yakkomajuri 3 hours ago
    Unfortunately the article doesn't tell us much. I'd have hoped for some footage beyond what was released by the artist.
  • everfrustrated 3 hours ago
    The idea that Banksy's identity is unknown is a complete myth perpuated by the popular press.

    The guy is well known and very much part of the establishment.

    • hn_throwaway_99 2 hours ago
      > The idea that Banksy's identity is unknown is a complete myth perpuated by the popular press.

      I know saying RTFA is supposed to be against the HN guidelines, but it takes an amazing amount of confidently ignorant chutzpah to declare something "a complete myth perpetuated by the popular press" when the subtitle of this article literally states:

      > less than two months after a journalism investigation into Banksy’s true identity was published

    • parpfish 3 hours ago
      so why don't you share who it is with the rest of the class? why help perpetuate his (her?) secret identity mystique
    • songshu 3 hours ago
      I’ve been on this for 20 years. The guy has coffee table books! He cashes checks! He took something that was previously done anonymously and for free, put his name on it and started charging for it. Good luck to him, but anonymous he is not.
    • NomDePlum 3 hours ago
      [dead]
    • celticninja 3 hours ago
      [flagged]
    • phainopepla2 3 hours ago
      He also ripped his style off Blek le Rat and the political element to his work is jejune.
  • bigiain 2 hours ago
    "Dress up. Leave a false name. Be legendary. The best Poetic Terrorism is against the law, but don’t get caught. Art as crime; crime as art." -- T.A.Z.: The Temporary Autonomous Zone, Ontological Anarchy, Poetic Terrorism, 1985

    The whole piece is great - https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/hakim-bey-t-a-z-the-...

    Or if you have 5 mins to spare, the album version with Bill Laswell is even better - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt9vMF01Pd8

  • varispeed 2 hours ago
    It's kind of cheap. Obviously saying "Reform bad." without addressing why so many people think it's not bad. Banksy forgets that humans are humans and do human things.
    • nielsbot 2 hours ago
      My takeaway is "blind nationalism is idiotic and self defeating", but I'm not British. Is that about Reform (the party)?
      • varispeed 2 hours ago
        Yes, sort of anti-"illegal"-immigrant parties are a hot topic in the UK.

        But this is kind of "water is wet" message.

  • slopinthebag 3 hours ago
    I doubt Banksy is a single person fwiw.
  • ignoramous 4 hours ago
    Despite the denials, the answer is most likely this was all coordinated with LEAs.

      Some artists have questioned if Banksy, once considered anti-establishment, now enjoys special treatment from Britain's powers that be.
    
      In 2014, Vice Media asked: 'Why Is Banksy the Only Person Allowed to Vandalize Britain’s Walls?' The story quoted David Speed, a street artist who ran a British graffiti collective. "It's very much one rule for him and another rule for everyone else ... When street artists do it, it's vandalism. When Banksy does it, it's an art piece."
    
      Contacted by Reuters, Speed praised Banksy as "a really important artist of modern times." Yet he still wonders why "one artist should be able to have carte blanche and everyone else would be subject to penalties."
    
    In Search of Banksy, https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/global-a... (2026).
    • brookst 4 hours ago
      Not sure I agree it’s “most likely” when the linked article presents no evidence of LEA awareness or complicity, just one person speculating.

      I know firsthand what can be done with a hardhat, clipboard, and high-viz vest. IMO it is far more likely that Banksy is just really good at social engineering in ways that other street artists are not.

      • noosphr 3 hours ago
        The difference is that you'd get a police visit and your artwork torn down if you're not Banksy.
        • kerridge0 3 hours ago
          mainly because it's worth a lot of money...
        • yreg 3 hours ago
          That doesn't mean it was coordinated.
      • nicoburns 3 hours ago
        I imagine this just isn't that difficult to get away with. Most areas are basically empty in the early hours of the morning (even in the middle of the city). And people doing some kind of engineering or installation work at that time would also not be that unusual.
      • adzm 3 hours ago
        Plus this is pretty much the only street artist with worldwide name recognition; of course things are going to be different.
      • huflungdung 3 hours ago
        [dead]
  • nickdothutton 5 hours ago
    Remember kids. Don't believe in anything. Don't join anything. Don't give even a small part of yourself up to anything. Don't be part of anything bigger than yourself.
    • wartywhoa23 5 hours ago
      Don't be part of anything bigger than yourself that treats you as expendable human oil.
      • lucketone 4 hours ago
        Stop and reflect for a moment. Then continue as usual (quite likely)
        • wartywhoa23 3 hours ago
          I had to check your other comments and now I get it that you still regard flags as having some sacred meaning in the great national past, but for me they always were about gathering as much human expendables underneath.

          Sure, they might have had generated enough sacred reverence, those bloodbaths of past.

          • lucketone 3 hours ago
            > you still regard flags as having some sacred meaning

            I would like to disagree on this point.

    • BLKNSLVR 4 hours ago
      You forgot to add:

      ... that blinds you to any alternative; that indoctrinates distrust in different perspectives; that elevates the humanity of fellow believers above others.

    • bdangubic 5 hours ago
      much more sound advice than you think…
  • xyzelement 4 hours ago
    It took me a minute to figure out why I think it's lame.

    I suspect that Banksy and his fans are sure that it's "the other" Britons that are blinded, it's not a self-reflection prompt for them. Maybe I am wrong.

    Maybe a more powerful piece of art would have that self reflection effect across the board. As is it feels about as nuanced as "fuck trump" and similar. If you already agree you already agree, if not then you just think it's stupid. So ultimately feels like impotent art unless I am totally misunderstanding.

    • ninjagoo 2 hours ago
      > It took me a minute to figure out why I think it's lame.

      > Maybe a more powerful piece of art would have that self reflection effect across the board. As is it feels about as nuanced as "fuck trump" and similar. If you already agree you already agree, if not then you just think it's stupid.

      So close. Based on your own statement, it appears that you disagree with the proposed thesis by this piece of art.

      > So ultimately feels like impotent art unless I am totally misunderstanding.

      Maybe you should re-examine why you think it is stupid/lame. Is it because it calls you out and you don't like that feeling?

      • xyzelement 1 hour ago
        "calls me out"?
        • ninjagoo 1 hour ago
          > "calls me out"?

          i.e., as a member of the group of people represented by the statue?

    • lschueller 4 hours ago
      So many people connect this to political topics... For me this is the genius thing about the statue. Seems to be, that quite a lot people are so wrapped up in political debates and political positions, that it has to have political meaning. Maybe this statue is the exact opposit thing of a political message.
    • lucketone 4 hours ago
      Is it that important to decode what author thought when he was making it?

      What if the design was made by generative model, does the statue become more or less valuable?

    • fylo 4 hours ago
      Are you trying to be ironic?
    • delusional 4 hours ago
      Yet us talking about it just prompted me to consider how that applies to my life, so something good came of it :)
    • LightBug1 4 hours ago
      I don't think it's impotent at all.

      I think you're wildly overestimating the general population's capacity for nuance.

      Particularly in a world where nuance goes the same way as wood logs near a fire place.

  • AlexandrB 5 hours ago
    Which flag?
    • rootlocus 5 hours ago
      The one he's carrying.
    • shocks 5 hours ago
      Any flag.
    • BLKNSLVR 4 hours ago
      Whoooosh
    • LightBug1 4 hours ago
      And others in this thread were worried about it being too obvious ... ffs
  • metalman 5 hours ago
    Statue of a man in a suit walking off a precipice while blinding himself with the flag he is carrying.

    https://banksy.co.uk/index.html

    • Simulacra 4 hours ago
      I can't get over the flag itself… It's a black flag. Not a British flag, not a white flag,… A BLACK flag.

      Historically, the black flag is strongly associated with anarchism, anti-state politics, revolt, and rejection of national authority.

      Had he colored it in the union jack, then I would've said it was nationalism, and the person is blinded by nationalism.

      But. This is Banksy, black-and-white Banksy, so there may be no symbolism behind the black flag, but it's just very interesting. I can't accept that he would not have considered the color of the flag.

      • danparsonson 3 hours ago
        It's styled after other bronze statues that are all one colour because of the material. Given the context in which he put this up, it's a pretty clear commentary on nationalism in general, so using a specific country's flag wouldn't work.
        • Simulacra 2 hours ago
          I get the unifying color, but I still think there's a hidden meaning
      • Ancapistani 3 hours ago
        It’s Banksy. He uses color to highlight things or where the color is important. Here, I assume the flag is intentionally indistinguishable.
      • jamesmccann 2 hours ago
        It's a monochrome artwork so there is no colour assigned to the flag, rather than it being specifically black.
      • mindslight 4 hours ago
        I think it's about being slightly more subtle than a frontal attack on a specific flag.

        But from an American perspective a guy wearing a suit while carrying an "anarchist" flag wouldn't be inappropriate, either.

        • Simulacra 2 hours ago
          But what is the anarchist flag?
        • Ancapistani 3 hours ago
          Why not?

          We anarchists with careers do in fact exist. There are probably dozens of us outside of tech, even!

          • mindslight 3 hours ago
            How would you say your numbers compare to the amount of business leaders who are marketing themselves with messages of liberation, but actually want to usher in an era of unfettered corporate authoritarianism? I was not saying an anarchist wearing a suit cannot exist. Rather I was pointing out the current pop culture abuse of the concepts of anarchism/libertarianism.
            • Ancapistani 3 hours ago
              I’m not sure; lots of people self-identify as anarchists while holding beliefs that are diametrically opposed to my own, and lots of people who are much closer to my own beliefs call themselves other things because they’re either afraid of the word “anarchism” or understand it to mean something else.

              If I had to ballpark it, I’d guess something like 1:5 people in tech are broadly aligned with me politically (meaning “less extreme, but directionally similar”) while maybe 1:100 would self-identify as an anarchist and 1:500 both self-identify and align fully with me.

              Does that help?

      • runarberg 3 hours ago
        Black flags are never depicted being wielded in this way. The stance and the clothes of the person carrying the flag are two more artistic shorthands that makes it very clear that this is a national flag, not a black flag of solidarity.
  • nothinkjustai 4 hours ago
    If someone was to deface this statue would they face legal action? It’s kind of an interesting thought, side if it really was just put up without the city’s authority it would be okay, and if it wasn’t it defeats the entire point.

    “Rage against the machine” by doing what the machine wants type thing.

    • petermcneeley 3 hours ago
      Really makes you wonder about other things as well...
    • declan_roberts 4 hours ago
      Yes. This is state-sanctioned think. They probably paid to put it up!
    • lucketone 4 hours ago
      That evil city council..
  • slopinthebag 5 hours ago
    Wind bad.
  • haunter 4 hours ago
    He definitely got a permit for that which makes the whole thing even more laughable
    • CPLX 4 hours ago
      There's no definitely about that at all. The city of Westminster issued a statement that seems fairly clear that they were as surprised as everybody else but are taking steps to protect it.
      • tialaramex 2 hours ago
        Yeah, one of my distant friends is a councillor in a borough where Banksy did a mural years back and it was definitely much more about ensuring the standing "Send in workers to paint over any graffiti" reaction doesn't happen than some sort of "That's nice, the committee which issued the permit for this didn't tell me when it would happen". So far as she told me she heard about it the same way most people did, it was on the local news that morning.
  • cboyardee 2 hours ago
    [dead]
  • jchip303 4 hours ago
    [dead]
  • Gongo_Emperor 5 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • jansan 5 hours ago
    Who decides that this is from Banksy? I could make a stencil graffiti in my village and claim it's from Banksy and noone could prove me wrong. Or is he using a digital signature as proof of authorship?
  • sourcegrift 2 hours ago
    This seems like more bigotry against marginalized individuals and shouldn't be celebrated. The message here is that (the few) elites helping build a progressive society are doing it wrong.
    • AngryData 41 minutes ago
      What elites are pushing for a progressive society? Doubling down on rule by capital holders isn't progressive, we have already seen it before.
  • drcongo 4 hours ago
    This statue might be the best thing he's ever done. I love it.
    • kakacik 4 hours ago
      very current, elegant yet simple to appreciate - everybody can find some reference there
    • nephihaha 3 hours ago
      Is it? The flag is black, so could be a variety of things, not necessarily even a national flag. Just a flag in a march. (Anarchism uses a black flag.)
      • rapidaneurism 3 hours ago
        And how is blindly following a flag differ between a national flag and an ideology flag?
      • celticninja 3 hours ago
        The guy is walking off a cliff and he is blinded by the flag. I assume it is a commentary on Brexit. It is just short of a decade since that vote. Nationalism blinded people and they did something stupid. Not dissimilar to what is going on in the US too.
        • TFNA 3 hours ago
          > I assume it is a commentary on Brexit.

          The Brexit vote was a decade ago and though many mourn the outcome, it’s a bit late to be erecting artwork about it. References to being blinded by a flag now are probably about the particular far-right organizing of the last year or so that employs the English and UK flags in a very particular way. [0]

          [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Raise_the_Colours

        • n1b0m 3 hours ago
          More likely a commentary on the flying of flags. Since late 2025 and throughout 2026, the UK has seen a surge in flags (the Union Jack and St George’s Cross) being tied to lampposts, bridges, and roundabouts.

          This campaign, which has been highly visible on social media and in physical neighborhoods, claims to promote patriotism. However, it has been deeply polarising, with critics and anti-racism groups arguing it is being used by far-right groups to mark territory and intimidate immigrant communities.

          • celticninja 3 hours ago
            This feels ai generated, was it?
            • celticninja 2 hours ago
              This is a weird one, some of the posts are obviously a human, some are a mix and some are AI entirely. Maybe I just don't understand the point in posting AI generated content at all in this scenario.
          • nephihaha 2 hours ago
            It probably does means that, but by having a black/blank flag, he has left it open to many other interpretations he never intended.
  • dickens5 5 hours ago
    Trite and uninspiring. Banksy trying to stay relevant and failing.
    • lschueller 4 hours ago
      Well, for a failing artist he is quite impactful, isn't he? News around the world reporting about it. People discussing it. This seems to be quite inspiring and anything else but failing.
    • BLKNSLVR 4 hours ago
      Got you to comment, job done. Engagement: tick.
  • MrBuddyCasino 5 hours ago
    Really makes you think. I guess Palestine and Ukraine should just give up.
    • jojobas 1 hour ago
      You can't seriously put Palestine and Ukraine in the same sentence like this.
      • arduanika 32 minutes ago
        Sure he can. Both of them have flags, and all flags are bad. They blow in your face and make you dumb. Why can't world be less dumb? So many dumb flag people. I do art.
    • dickens5 5 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • ebbi 4 hours ago
        Israel should give up on the apartheid, genocide, and the war crimes. No one but the worst of the worst Zionists want to see the continuation of the last 80 years.
  • ninjagoo 2 hours ago
    It's an interesting piece. Makes one think about all those folks that have a lot of pride and vanity for a place that they had no control over being born in. The luck of the draw.

    And very likely had very little to do with the current state of the place. Pride at age 21? Meaningless vanity, like being proud of being born with a silver spoon. Pride at age 80? Sure, if it was a life well-lived.

    • gopperl 2 hours ago
      There's no luck involved in the fact that you were born to your parents, as they were to theirs. It is right to be proud of the achievements of your ancestors who have, over countless generations, toiled and strived to deliver the place that we were so fortunate to inherit from them. It reminds us of our responsibility to defend and improve that place for the coming generations of our people.
      • ninjagoo 1 hour ago

          > There's no luck involved in the fact that you were born to your parents, as they were to theirs.
        
        Are you claiming to have controlled where and to whom you were born?

        You did not choose your parents, country, ancestry, class, era, genes, language, or inherited institutions. You may be inseparable from those facts, but you did not earn them.

          > There's no luck involved in the fact that you were born to your parents
          > we were so fortunate to inherit from them.
        
        These two statements appear to be contradictory.

          > It is right to be proud of the achievements of your ancestors
        
        And what was your contribution to those achievements to justify this pride?

        You have to be careful to not fall into the trap of borrowed glory: treating an ancestor’s achievement as your own personal merit, or using ancestry to rank yourself above others.

          > toiled and strived to deliver the place that we were so fortunate to inherit
          > our responsibility to defend and improve that place for the coming generations of our people.
        
        Are you implying that the place belongs more fully to descendants of earlier inhabitants than to newer members of the community?

        So then Native Americans have a stronger claim than European descendants? Or is that a standard to only be applied moving forward?

        That's also like the caste system in India: only children of brahmins can be brahmins, children of shudras can only be shudras. One is superior to another by inheritance, not merit.

        That's ugly and abhorrent.

          > It is right to be proud of the achievements of your ancestors
        
        Are you then also ashamed of their crimes?
        • gopperl 1 hour ago
          >Are you claiming to have controlled where and to whom you were born?

          My parents did. Their parents did. My children will.

          >you did not earn them

          My parents did. Their parents did. My children will.

          Everything I have today has been hard-earned by my ancestors. Everything my children have will be hard-earned by my ancestors and I. We earned them.

          >These two statements appear to be contradictory

          Only if you believe such things to be due to purely random chance. I can feel 'fortunate' that my parents got me the bike I really wanted for Christmas, but there's no randomness in my parents working overtime and budgeting responsibly that made it possible.

          >And what was your contribution to those achievements to justify this pride?

          I am a part of the same collective, the long and continued story of my people. I am proud of those who came before me.

          >You have to be careful to not fall into the trap of borrowed glory

          You have to be careful not to fall into the trap of nihilistic individualism. You are part of something much bigger than yourself. Be suspicious of anyone trying to sever your connection to your people and your history.

          >Are you implying that the place belongs more fully to descendants of earlier inhabitants than to newer members of the community?

          That makes sense, yes. To your example, I would say that Native Americans have very little claim to the modern USA as practically everything was built by Europeans. They failed to defend their lands and were successfully conquered. In the same way, it would be absurd in my view for the majority non-White population of London (almost all of whom are very recent colonisers) to gaze around at the infrastructure and architecture and think "We made this."

          >Are you then also ashamed of their crimes?

          Sure, but not nearly as ashamed as our enemies would like us to be. Isn't it funny how we are supposed to recoil in shame and horror with the constant reminders of the worst parts of our people's history, yet we are condemned for also proudly owning our best?

          • ninjagoo 37 minutes ago

              >> Are you claiming to have controlled where and to whom you were born?
              > My parents did. Their parents did. My children will.
            
            But not you

              >> you did not earn them
              > My parents did. Their parents did. My children will.
            
            But not you

              > Everything I have today has been hard-earned by my ancestors.
            
            But not by you

              > Everything my children have will be hard-earned by my ancestors and I. *We* earned them.
            
            LoL
    • arduanika 24 minutes ago
      > It's an interesting piece.

      If you're twelve years old, maybe.

      > The luck of the draw.

      This is a core tenet of the Rawlsian religion, of which you are a (probably unwitting) fanatic. If you like questioning things so much, you should question why this thing you take for an eternal fact had to be invented in 1971, and what exactly it is propping up.