How should readers assess the credibility of these claims that 12k, 36k, or 100k have been killed? I'm not there. I haven't seen anything with my own eyes. Should I expect that if the death toll reaches X, then Y form of evidence would make it out?
Credible reporting puts the number somewhere between 30-40k among the intelligence community - comments and discussions have happened in public, and various officials around the world have repeated that range several times over the last week or so.
The information and sources are there for you to search, and it's up to you to determine who you find credible and why.
> Credible reporting puts the number somewhere between 30-40k among the intelligence community
The same intelligence community bragging that they're embedded among the protestors and engaging in covert-action (oxymoronic as it sounds) to bring about regime change?
That said it's been pointed out to me that my link is statements by anonymous government officials, which is not the same thing as "official Iranian government numbers".
Gazan health authorities were releasing the names of their dead, and this was met with great skepticism and qualification in Israel and the West (until this week when Israel just accepted at least tens of thousands died).
Random, inflated numbers from anonymous sources pop up on Iran and they're instantly quoted as fact.
Also - some of the rebels have guns and have been using them, so some of these dead are from shootouts.
I find the numbers to be surreal. The Gaza war is estimated to have around 100.000 dead (if you also count those who were buried under collapsed buildings or died of indirect causes). That was after two years of bombardment.
The Gaza war is a war with the side with the superior army trying to avoid killing. In Iran's war on it's own people, the superior army is trying to kill "as a punishment" (their words).
The same is true for the Russia-Ukraine war, btw. There have been 1300 victims per day for over 3 years. Russia is not trying to minimize casualties.
Why is it surprising that it results in an extreme difference in death toll? Or at least, in the rate of killing.
Yes, but 1300 victims per day, which is absolutely horrible, but still less than 6000 - 50.000 victims per day.
Or as another point of comparison (according to Wikipedia) : The bombing of Dresden went over three days and cost 25.000 lives. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually resulted in 100.000 immediate deaths.
All those locations - the Donbas, Gaza, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were complete wastelands afterwards.
This makes it hard to believe for me. That being said, 3000 would still be absolutely gruesome.
I think, as sad as it sounds, the exact number doesn’t really matter.
We know: We know: a government whose sole purpose is to protect its people has committed the mass murder of unarmed civilians. has committed the mass murder of unarmed civilians.
That’s all there is to know to make a judgement about what has happened.
Iranian official figures[1] put the final death toll at ~3111 for the entire duration of the protests (about a month). They have supposedly published names and identification numbers for about ~2900. So that gives a baseline at least.
Figures thrown around like 12k/20k/30k in 2 days - frankly beggar belief. Compare it to the recent (and ongoing) massacre of Gaza. which at its peak we were talking 1000-2000 deaths per day. The Israelis were dropping 2000-pound bombs and shelling non-stop until the entire strip into rubble. Reaching similar numbers against armed protestors without resorting to heavy weapons doesn't seem plausible. On top of it, 100s of thousands of injured (claimed along with the deaths). Again in 2 days. Even in a country of 90 million, can you imagine the utter pandemonium in every hospital. Mass graves. The blood and bodies at the squares. It would be visible from space. It would impossible to conceal. You have to go to Babi Yar in WW2 to get similar figures.
Beyond that its hard for me to tell. I dont trust any of this, given the interests and parties involved and the sources pushing these narratives . The legacy media is in full-blown propaganda offensive. The accounts and claims seem to come from a constellation of anti-regime NGOs, activists, Israeli lobbyists, neocons and intelligence agencies. Statements and actions of western and Israeli leaders make it abundantly clear this is an armed regime-change operation backed by numerous US, Israeli and western-backed proxy groups. US carrier strike groups have finally arrived in Gulf of Oman and suddenly the news stories pick up again. A month ago the same CSG was off the coast of Venezuela while the nobel prize was being awarded to an opponent of the Venezuelan government. Now that same nobel-laureate is meeting up with Reza Pahlavi and opponents of the Iranian government while Trump is sabre-rattling again. It all feels like deja-vu all over again. Netanyahu and the Israelis really want their Iran war and they need the Americans to carry it home for them.
You honestly cannot know and anyone who claims you can should be suspected. It's probably between what the government claims (which will tend to be lower) and what people estimate. Some groups are only logging confirmed deaths are around 12k+ probably increasing by the day.
But if it's 5-10-20 or even more k, how much difference does it make? The crime of mass killing and collective punishment is still as gruesome either way
Still blows my mind how NKR with all it's geologic limitations, or perhaps despite it, played their weak hand well while Iran squandered a much stronger hand. Too much oil and cultural/past hegemon hubris, the Ayatollah are not serious people. Nor the Iranian people who protest because lol the shah's son told them to (this article). They deserve each other. Frankly Iran is on Israel grass mowing schedule now - they didn't win the 12 day war, but demonstrated even incompetent Iran has latent ability to. IMO Iranian dissidents are dangerously naive to geopolitical reality, it's in no ones regional interest to do anything other than to keep Iran and by extension, Iranians down. At this point, if Iran serous about favourable regional lightcone, their only option is to ditch half measured authoritarian amateur hour and double down. Frankly they should have had their own firewall and purged libtard compradors 10+ years ago.
The original read "Spine-chillingly familiar" verbatim. I did not claim that the US was doing the same thing as Iran, and I changed it to make that even more clear after you tried boxing me into your interpretation.
It's troubling that most of the free world stands by and watches as a genocidal-level massacre takes place in Iran. Persians don't expect China/Russia to respond, but come on, no action from the West?
Imagine negotiating with Hitler to give up his V2 missiles and nuclear plans while the Holocaust was taking place. History will judge us for negotiating (and therefore, legitimizing) with the islamic regime that's occupied Iran for 47 years.
The West already has Iran under crippling economic sanctions, has intelligence operatives undermining the Iranian government, and funds military attacks by proxies. What more do you expect them to do apart from direct military action (which would be deeply unpopular)?
I'm sure that many Iranians would support the regime being toppled, and so would the Iranian diaspora (understandably, since most of them were either forced out of the country or chose to leave due to the revolution, so of course they would be in favor of regime change). However, it would be extremely unpopular in general in the West. One recent poll indicated that 7 out of 10 Americans don't want the US government to take military action against Iran for killing protesters who demonstrate against the Iranian government. https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3945 You barely see that kind of consensus on any political polling in the US, and what voters think actually matters for a few months because the midterm elections are coming up.
Yes, deeply unpopular in the countries who would be providing the militaries. The countries in question tend to be democratic, thus unpopular decisions that have no real benefit to that country are unlikely to be made.
How about South Korea, Japan, Germany, and France? US military intervention has had really good outcomes in the past, why just cherry pick the bad ones?
As an Iranian, nothing hurts me more than someone outside my country lecturing Iranians about Iran. Vast majority of Persians are waiting for the US and Israel to attack the regime and finish off this mafia that's kept us hostages for half a century.
AMERICANS aren't the world police.
Americans are starving, can't afford medical care, being shot at, and tons of atrocities to deal with AT HOME RIGHT NOW.
That has been the bargain since WWII though. Pax Americana meant the US owned and enforced a global order, in return international trade and finance ran on its platform. Most Americans can't fathom how bad the alternative is to not being the world police.
The US have a good share of responsibility for what's going on in Iran, first by overthrowing the democratic government of Mossadegh, then by imposing crippling sanctions (reneging on a previous agreement) that brought the population to this level of desperation.
The US doesn't make foreign policy decisions altruistically. If we are involved somewhere, it's solely because it's to our benefit. The idea that we enforce order is childish; we do nothing that doesn't enforce our own international supremacy.
If we want to have the almost 800 military bases stationed in about 80 countries around the world, then there are some responsibilities that come with that.
Yes we are. You may not like it, you may not want to pay for it. You may even have voted to not be. But we have been in the past so the US will be judged for not picking up the mantle this time.
It's not a "grammatical technicality" to misuse a word. Iran is not carrying out a genocide.
>It's your mess, now clean it up.
The US is under no obligation to the people of Iran whatsoever. If we take action in Iran, it will be solely to our benefit, and it may or may not improve those peoples' lives. In all likelihood, it will be another Libya or Afghanistan situation in which we take what we want and leave a power vacuum in our wake.
Thank you, your comment made me aware of this event I didn't know. [1] I have found at least one concrete evidence you assertion is correct [2]: The Dusseldorf Agreement of March 16, 1939.
> The British historian Martin Gilbert believes that "many non-Jews resented the round-up", his opinion being supported by German witness Dr. Arthur Flehinger who recalls seeing "people crying while watching from behind their curtains". Rolf Dessauer recalls how a neighbor came forward and restored a portrait of Paul Ehrlich that had been "slashed to ribbons" by the Sturmabteilung. "He wanted it to be known that not all Germans supported Kristallnacht."
This passage is particulary eerie IMHO, since I've been reading "I don't condone this" of current world events over and over.
> In 1938, just after Kristallnacht, the psychologist Michael Müller-Claudius interviewed 41 randomly selected Nazi Party members on their attitudes towards racial persecution. Of the interviewed party members, 63% expressed extreme indignation against it, 5% expressed approval, and the remaining 32% were noncommittal.
Also particurlarly eerie to me. Yet the regime went on.
I think if you support Netanyahu, you are not in a position to condemn these atrocities. The problem is that Iranian pro-democracy opposition is demolished by far-right sometimes neo-Nazi monarchists!
"Pol Pot killed one point seven million Cambodians, died under house arrest, well done there. Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, aged seventy-two, well done indeed. And the reason we let them get away with it is they killed their own people. And we're sort of fine with that. Hitler killed people next door. Oh, stupid man. After a couple of years we won't stand for that, will we?"
-Eddie Izzard
Most action from the West is likely to make things worse. Can you give a scenario where that's not the case?
WWII did not happen because of the Holocaust and nations around the world being outraged at that. In truth, the US and many other countries rejected Jewish refugees from Germany
> It's troubling that most of the free world stands by and watches as a genocidal-level massacre takes place in Iran. Persians don't expect China/Russia to respond, but come on, no action from the West?
I find it surprising that you're troubled. The West helped Israel with its genocide in Gaza; why did you expect that the West would intervene in what's happening the Iran, which by death count is significantly smaller?
In 48 hours, the islamic regime in Iran massacred more than 40,000 protestors (and left tens of thousands of people blinded/wounded, often "finishing them off" by raiding hospitals...). Some figures even show more than 40,000, but even assuming the low-park, that's 833 people per hour, or 13 people per minute who got killed.
Whatever Israel did (to defend itself) was by no means even near those numbers.
> In 48 hours, the islamic regime in Iran massacred more than 40,000 protestors (and left tens of thousands of people blinded/wounded, often "finishing them off" by raiding hospitals...). Some figures even show more than 40,000, but even assuming the low-park, that's 833 people per hour, or 13 people per minute who got killed.
> Whatever Israel did (to defend itself) was by no means even near those numbers.
Israel killed about 300,000 people in the first month. Sure, it's a lower count per day, what a low bar.
From now on, every time anyone says anything about Iran, I'll be pushing the narrative that "whatever Iran did, it was to defend itself".
Edit to add: Also, Israel was actually attacked, and civilians were raped, kidnapped, and murdered. Did any of the protestors in Iran kill, rape, or murder any of members of the regime who subsequently slaughtered them?
> Edit to add: Also, Israel was actually attacked, and civilians were raped, kidnapped, and murdered. Did any of the protestors in Iran kill, rape, or murder any of members of the regime who subsequently slaughtered them?
Just to be clear. You're arguing that if a country is attacked, it's ok to kill civilians that are unrelated to the attack? Or are you arguing that those 300,000 were somehow involved in the killing of the 3,000 Israelis that died in the Hamas attack?
> Edit to add: Also, Israel was actually attacked, and civilians were raped, kidnapped, and murdered. Did any of the protestors in Iran kill, rape, or murder any of members of the regime who subsequently slaughtered them?
So you're not saying that what Israel is doing is less bad due to the fact that it was attacked? So what are you saying then?
I guess that no, I can't find a more charitable way to interpret what you said.
>> From now on, every time anyone says anything about Iran, I'll be pushing the narrative that "whatever Iran did, it was to defend itself".
> Israel was actually attacked
I was responding to your claim that Iran was defending itself... Whether or not Israel responded disproportionately to October 7 (it did), I don't think it's fair to say Iran's actions are "self-defense" in the same way that Israel's war was self-defense.
No, I don't agree. What is Israel is doing is WAY past the "disproportionate" conversation. For one, Israel's targets have nothing to do with the people who attacked Israel, other than they come from the same geographical area. It's like saying "bombing Italy is a disproportionate response to Luigi Mangione assassinating someone".
Disproportionate would be if they caught the October 7 terrorists and their collaborators, and instead of arresting them killed them. If that was what happened, I wouldn't be morally against it.
Right, that was the number I had in my head... and that's for the whole war. This guy apparently believes 300k were killed in the first month, but I have no idea where that's coming from.
The best thing about zionism zealots propagandists is they can't hide it. I guess it's the effect of decades of having the West self-flagellate over "antisemitism", they got used to getting away with everything.
Also funny the wording "whatever they did", as if it's a mystery.
I have no idea what the true casulaties are in Iran but I do know I don't trust a word from any Western media outlet on it, particularly when those same outlets have been silent on Gaza, have pushed Israeli propaganda without question (eg [1]) and are bending over backwards to not report on the links between Jeffrey Epstein and Israel by either saying nothing at all or doing contortions to make it seem like Epstein was a Putin puppet (eg [2]).
So who is Raha Nik-Andish (the author)? I don't really know. It's a pseudonym for someone who reported left Iran for 14 years (to France maybe?) but went back last year. At least they seem to be in Iran. I'm dubious about the calls for the Shah. It could be a proxy for wanting an end to the current regime. That would be fair. But nobody serious wants a return of the Shah, who would be the original Shah's son, Raza Pahlavi, who, for the record, is an Israeli asset [3].
It is a desired goal of US and Israeli foreign policy to collapse the Iranian regime and turn it into a failed state like Somalia.
Israeli agitators are very active in Iran. This isn't a conspiracy. They come right out and say it [3]. Mossad uses a network of Israelis who speak perfect Farsi and exploits Afghan refugees in Iran [4].
This actually reminds me a lot of Cuba. There are a bunch of displaced Cubans who hated Castro. You have to consider the source. Many of them fled because they were allied to Batista. This has become almost comical where, for example, US Senator Ted Cruz hates Castro and communists because Batista forced his family to flee Cuba [6].
So there are a lot of Iranians in diaspora who likewise have ties to the Shah's regime.
And let's not forget why Iran is a fundamentalist Iranian republic: the US toppled Iran's government (largely at the urging of the British) in 1953 after Mosaddegh "nationalized" their own oil. The Shah became a brutal dictator and when it became clear he was finished, the US instead propped up then-exiled Khomenei to win [7] for fear that the Communists would win and Iran would fall into the Soviet sphere of influence.
What followed was a decade of the Iran-Iraq war where the US used another puppet, Saddam Hussein, to foment a war with Iran that cost millions of lives.
And of course we have decades of sanctions, which is basically just starving people and hoping for the best.
But sure, the US really cares about dead Iranian protestors. This is just manufacturing consent for further military action in Iran for US and Israeli strategic interests.
The EU and US have imposed sanctions on Iran, crippling its economy, Israel has killed much of its military high command. The US and Israel have rallied the usual internal opposition. Joined no doubt, by some who have been hit in the wallet and stomach by crippling sanctions. Just like the Scandinavians focused on Venezuela with their prize and Trump murdered Maduro's bodyguards and whoever else was standing around in an attempt to wrest Venezuela's sovereignty, or now Cuba's or even Greenland's, Iran is a current focus of western imperial focus to destroy their sovereignty. The US and UK succeeded in the 1950s when the Iranian parliament tried to nationalize Iran's oil, but they were tossed out in 1979 and the imperialists have been hell bent to put Iran under their thumb again.
While children in Gaza starve, ICE roams the streets killing even non-immigrants, and Greenland is in the crosshairs, white, professional-managerial types put their focus on replacing Iranian sovereignty with being under the West's boot, for very liberal, humanitarian reasons of course.
They are not. It's the eastern imperialists that are causing this. And if it's a choice between eastern imperialists (China and Russia) and western ones, it seems that Iranian people by far prefer the western ones.
For three main reasons.
1. Culturally Iranians are way more aligned with west.
2. Western imperialism results in more democracy. Not 100%, but not this bad.
3. Economically countries under west's influence do much better. Iran is extremely poor right now.
Iran's government is an Islamic fundamentalist dictatorship. It has imprisoned and killed protestors[0], it hung over 700 political dissidents last year[1], it has imprisoned and executed people who have left Islam[2], it has beaten and imprisoned women who refused to wear hijab[3]. As for LGBT rights, Equaldex lists Iran 190th out of 197 nations[4]. Time Magazine reports[5] that some 30,000 people were killed in January for protesting the government.
Even the parent article reports first-hand that the Iranian regime is now labelling protesters as terrorists and calls for their arrests.
This, combined with the drought and economic collapse, has pushed the Iranian people towards revolt.
This is not the fault of Israel, America, Trump, Greenland, white people, or any other boogeyman. It's a feature of Iranian government, and the Iranian people want change.
The Iranian government is responsible of all sorts of human rights violations, and also for the drought (at least partly), but the economic collapse was triggered by the US.
Bessent said so at Davos:
"President Trump ordered our Treasury and our OFAC division (Office of Foreign Asset Control) to put maximum pressure on Iran. And it's worked, because in December, their economy collapsed. [...] So this is why people took to the street. This is economic statecraft". https://youtu.be/VQQXLnXlWqY?t=1722
Is this how America helps dissidents? Make them so miserable they can't bear it anymore? Anyways, it never works. It just makes civilians more miserable and the government more repressive. Look at Cuba or North Korea.
Yes, I concede the US is partly responsible for Iran's economic collapse. What a wonderful outcome should it result in the Ayatollahs losing their grip on power.
To dismiss the impact of economic sanctions is at best intellectually dishonest. Economic sanctions aren't a natural disaster. Somebody is imposing them. Who, exactly? And why?
Also, US allies (ie Israel) can kill hundreds of thousands of people without any consequences. In fact, we bankroll the weapons they use to do it to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars.
So why are the documented atrocities of one country not an issue at all but the transgressions of another country worthy of starving that country for decades? What's different between these two? And who is making that determination?
Make no mistake about Venezuela. The Maduro regime has caused untold pain and suffering to the Venezuelan people. Venezuela was no longer sovereign nation, Maduro was staying in power by force against the will of the people.
I get anti-West sentiment. I get anti-US imperialism. I get pointing out the double standard of the West regarding Israel, their atrocities and genocide. I get looking with cynicism at the great powers' manouevers.
I don't get—never have, probably never will—painting the Islamic Republic of Iran as saviours, freedom fighters, or the last bulwark of an axis of resistance.
If the Boston strangler was anti-imperialist, would you claim he was a hero? It feels like you would.
If the mullahs are so bad, why did the UK and US back them against the democracy of Mossadegh in the 1950s? Then Savak with CIA help slaughtered the secular left in Iran into the 1970s.
Westerners work to slaughter the secular left in a country, then use that as their entitlement to take over the country - "there is no secular force to take over".
This just happened in Syria - the West forced out a secular leader to replace him with a now celebrated al-Qaeda leader who the US had a $10 million bounty on fourteen months ago. Who is currently slaughtering every minority ethnicity in the country.
I assume that the economic conditions are caused by the sanctions designed to force Iran to give up their nuclear ambitions? But that only works if the country actually cares about its people. Iran seems content to let them suffer (or kill them themselves). Is Iran destined to become the next North Korea? Will their oil save them from that?
Nevermind that Iran's nuclear ambitions had already been kept in check by a thorough program of inspections. Trump walked back on that, because the sanctions are an end in itself.
The information and sources are there for you to search, and it's up to you to determine who you find credible and why.
The same intelligence community bragging that they're embedded among the protestors and engaging in covert-action (oxymoronic as it sounds) to bring about regime change?
https://archive.is/20251230221603/https://www.jpost.com/midd...
https://x.com/mikepompeo/status/2007180411638620659 https://x.com/mikepompeo/status/2007180411638620659
https://archive.ph/2026.01.25-142822/https://time.com/735763...
Iran official figures put it around ~3k actually.
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2014688298472460563
That said it's been pointed out to me that my link is statements by anonymous government officials, which is not the same thing as "official Iranian government numbers".
> The 30,000 figure is also far beyond tallies being compiled by activists methodically assigning names to the dead.
The official government estimate is still 3,117 btw.
The truth is we'll likely never know for sure the real number and any outlet reporting anything else without qualifications is being dishonest.
I am very skeptical tbh seeing all this unfold. The propaganda push from media over this is off the charts on this.
A counter-perspective on these figures and their sources :
https://x.com/TheGrayzoneNews/status/2017089536686211440#m https://xcancel.com/TheGrayzoneNews/status/20170895366862114...
Gazan health authorities were releasing the names of their dead, and this was met with great skepticism and qualification in Israel and the West (until this week when Israel just accepted at least tens of thousands died).
Random, inflated numbers from anonymous sources pop up on Iran and they're instantly quoted as fact.
Also - some of the rebels have guns and have been using them, so some of these dead are from shootouts.
Time Magazine is reporting[0] that local Iranian health officials have given that number.
[0]: https://time.com/7357635/more-than-30000-killed-in-iran-say-...
This here is the same death toll in two days.
The same is true for the Russia-Ukraine war, btw. There have been 1300 victims per day for over 3 years. Russia is not trying to minimize casualties.
Why is it surprising that it results in an extreme difference in death toll? Or at least, in the rate of killing.
Or as another point of comparison (according to Wikipedia) : The bombing of Dresden went over three days and cost 25.000 lives. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually resulted in 100.000 immediate deaths.
All those locations - the Donbas, Gaza, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were complete wastelands afterwards.
This makes it hard to believe for me. That being said, 3000 would still be absolutely gruesome.
We know: We know: a government whose sole purpose is to protect its people has committed the mass murder of unarmed civilians. has committed the mass murder of unarmed civilians.
That’s all there is to know to make a judgement about what has happened.
Do you mean in person?
Figures thrown around like 12k/20k/30k in 2 days - frankly beggar belief. Compare it to the recent (and ongoing) massacre of Gaza. which at its peak we were talking 1000-2000 deaths per day. The Israelis were dropping 2000-pound bombs and shelling non-stop until the entire strip into rubble. Reaching similar numbers against armed protestors without resorting to heavy weapons doesn't seem plausible. On top of it, 100s of thousands of injured (claimed along with the deaths). Again in 2 days. Even in a country of 90 million, can you imagine the utter pandemonium in every hospital. Mass graves. The blood and bodies at the squares. It would be visible from space. It would impossible to conceal. You have to go to Babi Yar in WW2 to get similar figures.
Beyond that its hard for me to tell. I dont trust any of this, given the interests and parties involved and the sources pushing these narratives . The legacy media is in full-blown propaganda offensive. The accounts and claims seem to come from a constellation of anti-regime NGOs, activists, Israeli lobbyists, neocons and intelligence agencies. Statements and actions of western and Israeli leaders make it abundantly clear this is an armed regime-change operation backed by numerous US, Israeli and western-backed proxy groups. US carrier strike groups have finally arrived in Gulf of Oman and suddenly the news stories pick up again. A month ago the same CSG was off the coast of Venezuela while the nobel prize was being awarded to an opponent of the Venezuelan government. Now that same nobel-laureate is meeting up with Reza Pahlavi and opponents of the Iranian government while Trump is sabre-rattling again. It all feels like deja-vu all over again. Netanyahu and the Israelis really want their Iran war and they need the Americans to carry it home for them.
https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2026/02/01/763331/Iran-officia...
But if it's 5-10-20 or even more k, how much difference does it make? The crime of mass killing and collective punishment is still as gruesome either way
A familiar tactic to many governments around the world.
> Iran is operating in at a scale so far beyond anything ever seen in the US that it's completely dishonest to compare the two.
The person you're responding to didn't mention the US, but it's telling that that's where your mind goes to.
Imagine negotiating with Hitler to give up his V2 missiles and nuclear plans while the Holocaust was taking place. History will judge us for negotiating (and therefore, legitimizing) with the islamic regime that's occupied Iran for 47 years.
But it was asked what else the West could do beyond what it’s already doing.
It might be possible to do a targetted kidnapping/assassination without provoking a war. Or it might not be. Such actions become unpredictable fast.
"Genocidal" is not an order of magnitude; it's a description of purpose. What's going on in Iran is an atrocity, but it's not "genocidal."
>History will judge us for negotiating
We're not the world police.
That has been the bargain since WWII though. Pax Americana meant the US owned and enforced a global order, in return international trade and finance ran on its platform. Most Americans can't fathom how bad the alternative is to not being the world police.
I imagine you saying this in 1940, to a german jew refugee. Would you do it? Would you say this to a jewish person in WWII, to justify non-action?
Well, not anymore after that speech from the Canadian Prime Minister!
we share a planet
Then why did you overthrow their elected government in 1953? Which also set the country firmly on the path to the current regime.
Oh, well that's alright then. Hey fellers, we got off on a grammatical technicality.
> We're not the world police.
It's your mess, now clean it up.
>It's your mess, now clean it up.
The US is under no obligation to the people of Iran whatsoever. If we take action in Iran, it will be solely to our benefit, and it may or may not improve those peoples' lives. In all likelihood, it will be another Libya or Afghanistan situation in which we take what we want and leave a power vacuum in our wake.
Yes sir.
On a second thought - who the fuck are you to tell the country with the biggest dick what to do. We'll be putting 100% tariffs on you.
> The British historian Martin Gilbert believes that "many non-Jews resented the round-up", his opinion being supported by German witness Dr. Arthur Flehinger who recalls seeing "people crying while watching from behind their curtains". Rolf Dessauer recalls how a neighbor came forward and restored a portrait of Paul Ehrlich that had been "slashed to ribbons" by the Sturmabteilung. "He wanted it to be known that not all Germans supported Kristallnacht."
This passage is particulary eerie IMHO, since I've been reading "I don't condone this" of current world events over and over.
> In 1938, just after Kristallnacht, the psychologist Michael Müller-Claudius interviewed 41 randomly selected Nazi Party members on their attitudes towards racial persecution. Of the interviewed party members, 63% expressed extreme indignation against it, 5% expressed approval, and the remaining 32% were noncommittal.
Also particurlarly eerie to me. Yet the regime went on.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BCsseldorfer_Abkommen_(19...
Most action from the West is likely to make things worse. Can you give a scenario where that's not the case?
WWII did not happen because of the Holocaust and nations around the world being outraged at that. In truth, the US and many other countries rejected Jewish refugees from Germany
I find it surprising that you're troubled. The West helped Israel with its genocide in Gaza; why did you expect that the West would intervene in what's happening the Iran, which by death count is significantly smaller?
In 48 hours, the islamic regime in Iran massacred more than 40,000 protestors (and left tens of thousands of people blinded/wounded, often "finishing them off" by raiding hospitals...). Some figures even show more than 40,000, but even assuming the low-park, that's 833 people per hour, or 13 people per minute who got killed.
Whatever Israel did (to defend itself) was by no means even near those numbers.
> Whatever Israel did (to defend itself) was by no means even near those numbers.
Israel killed about 300,000 people in the first month. Sure, it's a lower count per day, what a low bar.
From now on, every time anyone says anything about Iran, I'll be pushing the narrative that "whatever Iran did, it was to defend itself".
Edit to add: Also, Israel was actually attacked, and civilians were raped, kidnapped, and murdered. Did any of the protestors in Iran kill, rape, or murder any of members of the regime who subsequently slaughtered them?
Just to be clear. You're arguing that if a country is attacked, it's ok to kill civilians that are unrelated to the attack? Or are you arguing that those 300,000 were somehow involved in the killing of the 3,000 Israelis that died in the Hamas attack?
If a country is attacked, and defends itself, are you saying it should stop any form of defense because a civilian can die?
If this is the logic, then what would prevent armies from using human shields?
How on earth did you get that from my comment? Can you think of a more charitable way to interpret what I said?
So you're not saying that what Israel is doing is less bad due to the fact that it was attacked? So what are you saying then?
I guess that no, I can't find a more charitable way to interpret what you said.
> Israel was actually attacked
I was responding to your claim that Iran was defending itself... Whether or not Israel responded disproportionately to October 7 (it did), I don't think it's fair to say Iran's actions are "self-defense" in the same way that Israel's war was self-defense.
Disproportionate would be if they caught the October 7 terrorists and their collaborators, and instead of arresting them killed them. If that was what happened, I wouldn't be morally against it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violen...
Hannibal directive: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-07/ty-article-ma...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#Claimed_use...
That’s the fake UN number - in contradiction with Gaza Health Ministry.
Now that's a record fast jump between "it never happened" and "they deserved it".
Also funny the wording "whatever they did", as if it's a mystery.
> ‘If America attacks Iran,’ I said, ‘won’t people be killed?’
> ‘They don’t kill people. Our own government does. No enemy in our history has done to us what these clerics have done.’
‘They don’t kill people. Our own government does. No enemy in our history has done to us what these clerics have done.’
So who is Raha Nik-Andish (the author)? I don't really know. It's a pseudonym for someone who reported left Iran for 14 years (to France maybe?) but went back last year. At least they seem to be in Iran. I'm dubious about the calls for the Shah. It could be a proxy for wanting an end to the current regime. That would be fair. But nobody serious wants a return of the Shah, who would be the original Shah's son, Raza Pahlavi, who, for the record, is an Israeli asset [3].
It is a desired goal of US and Israeli foreign policy to collapse the Iranian regime and turn it into a failed state like Somalia.
Israeli agitators are very active in Iran. This isn't a conspiracy. They come right out and say it [3]. Mossad uses a network of Israelis who speak perfect Farsi and exploits Afghan refugees in Iran [4].
This actually reminds me a lot of Cuba. There are a bunch of displaced Cubans who hated Castro. You have to consider the source. Many of them fled because they were allied to Batista. This has become almost comical where, for example, US Senator Ted Cruz hates Castro and communists because Batista forced his family to flee Cuba [6].
So there are a lot of Iranians in diaspora who likewise have ties to the Shah's regime.
And let's not forget why Iran is a fundamentalist Iranian republic: the US toppled Iran's government (largely at the urging of the British) in 1953 after Mosaddegh "nationalized" their own oil. The Shah became a brutal dictator and when it became clear he was finished, the US instead propped up then-exiled Khomenei to win [7] for fear that the Communists would win and Iran would fall into the Soviet sphere of influence.
What followed was a decade of the Iran-Iraq war where the US used another puppet, Saddam Hussein, to foment a war with Iran that cost millions of lives.
And of course we have decades of sanctions, which is basically just starving people and hoping for the best.
But sure, the US really cares about dead Iranian protestors. This is just manufacturing consent for further military action in Iran for US and Israeli strategic interests.
[1]: https://actionnetwork.org/letters/new-york-times-screams-wit...
[2]: https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/poland-invest...
[3]: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2025/7/3/son-of-former-sh...
[4]: https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-881733
[5]: https://minutemirror.com.pk/israel-recruited-afghan-refugees...
[6]: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/I2AdbLDVb0Q
[7]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/ayatollah-khom...
While children in Gaza starve, ICE roams the streets killing even non-immigrants, and Greenland is in the crosshairs, white, professional-managerial types put their focus on replacing Iranian sovereignty with being under the West's boot, for very liberal, humanitarian reasons of course.
The black and white "west is bad" narrative you're being fed isn't accurate.
Just trying to understand.
For three main reasons.
1. Culturally Iranians are way more aligned with west.
2. Western imperialism results in more democracy. Not 100%, but not this bad.
3. Economically countries under west's influence do much better. Iran is extremely poor right now.
Why do you think China and Russia are causing the economic instability? I thought it was because of US sanctions and currency manipulation.
Some "west bad" rhetoric is that the fall of communism was orchestrated by Americans and not of organic local origin.
In reality the communist regime protected by Russian/ soviet violence had no legitimacy or support from the population.
Perhaps Poles could not free themselves without the western , maybe Cia played active role in organizing solidarity movement.
If this is true then we Poles are forever grateful for orchestrating regime change in Poland in 1989.
Even the parent article reports first-hand that the Iranian regime is now labelling protesters as terrorists and calls for their arrests.
This, combined with the drought and economic collapse, has pushed the Iranian people towards revolt.
This is not the fault of Israel, America, Trump, Greenland, white people, or any other boogeyman. It's a feature of Iranian government, and the Iranian people want change.
[0]: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2026/jan/27/i...
[1]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/07/iran-horrifyi...
[2]: https://persecution.exmuslims.org/countries/iran/
[3]: https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/10/14/iran-new-hijab-law-adds-...
[4]: https://www.equaldex.com/region/iran
[5]: https://time.com/7357635/more-than-30000-killed-in-iran-say-...
Bessent said so at Davos:
"President Trump ordered our Treasury and our OFAC division (Office of Foreign Asset Control) to put maximum pressure on Iran. And it's worked, because in December, their economy collapsed. [...] So this is why people took to the street. This is economic statecraft". https://youtu.be/VQQXLnXlWqY?t=1722
Is this how America helps dissidents? Make them so miserable they can't bear it anymore? Anyways, it never works. It just makes civilians more miserable and the government more repressive. Look at Cuba or North Korea.
Also, US allies (ie Israel) can kill hundreds of thousands of people without any consequences. In fact, we bankroll the weapons they use to do it to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars.
So why are the documented atrocities of one country not an issue at all but the transgressions of another country worthy of starving that country for decades? What's different between these two? And who is making that determination?
I don't get—never have, probably never will—painting the Islamic Republic of Iran as saviours, freedom fighters, or the last bulwark of an axis of resistance.
If the Boston strangler was anti-imperialist, would you claim he was a hero? It feels like you would.
Westerners work to slaughter the secular left in a country, then use that as their entitlement to take over the country - "there is no secular force to take over".
This just happened in Syria - the West forced out a secular leader to replace him with a now celebrated al-Qaeda leader who the US had a $10 million bounty on fourteen months ago. Who is currently slaughtering every minority ethnicity in the country.
Just because they have a shitty government doesn't mean we (USA) have the right to their oil.
USA indeed doesn’t have any right to their oil, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t help.
This is incorrect. For example, the deal with Iran did not allow for surprise inspections.
No, that's the regime's excuse. Most electricity in the country is used by the regime to mine crypto (!).