I still don't really understand this story. I know that ICE invaded the factory and detained a few hundred people. They were vanished away and presumably being speedily sent back to Korea. Sure.
But every article I've read on this makes no statement about whether any of these hundreds of people were actually working without an appropriate visa, or whether they were given the chance to demonstrate their legitimacy, or whether any of these hundreds of people got to defend their case to a judge. Shouting "I'm here legally" while being rounded up by LEOs is not due process.
I'm not particularly sympathetic to Hyundai here, and it wouldn't be surprising if they subcontracted a sublegal operation to cut costs. But in a group of a few hundred people it's quite hard to imagine none of them have cases even worth hearing.
> But every article I've read on this makes no statement about whether any of these hundreds of people were actually working without an appropriate visa
This is because ICE is being particularly tight lipped about those details.
The New York Times got their hands on the records for 11 detainees.
6 on B1/B2 visas.
4 on 90-day waivers.
1 Unknown.
ICE claims visa violations, but the records do not state what work the detainees were actually doing. This is especially relevant for the B1 visas, which do permit certain business activities (including applicable ones for this situation; Meetings, trainings, "installation, service, and repair of foreign-bought machinery".
Of particular note is that in one case (out of these 11), ICE's records state there was no visa violation. The worker was deported anyway, forced into a "voluntary" departure.
Personal opinion: The degree to which hyundai may or may not have violated the law or operated within previously-tolerated gray areas remains to be seen. But the actions of ICE here are not those of a competent government organisation.
There should be clear records, they should be able to readily answer press questions. And yet they don't.
Worse still is that one person deported despite there being, even by ICE's own admission, no visa violation. Hard to assume good faith in incomplete or withheld records with such shit going on.
And what are other foreign companies to do with this? "Move your manufacturing to America! Oh btw even if you follow all laws to the letter a local chud may deport your workers for being not white enough and ruin the entire project" is an interesting sales pitch.
The point is not to be effective (at the stated goals), or follow the laws, or be competent at following the laws.
The goal is to ‘look tough’ for the base, demonstrate the power to act without having to follow the laws, and overall - inspire fear. To extract concessions and inspire fear based loyalty.
The weirdest part to me is that people still don’t seem to understand this?
> The weirdest part to me is that people still don’t seem to understand this?
It's possible to understand this perfectly and yet prefer to try and argue a more reasonable interpretation, hoping whoever you're talking to won't pick up on bad faith.
What I really don't get is what makes them so convinced that the state apparatus they're such a fan of won't be turned on them? Even if you look like you belong, say the right things, hold the right opinions, you never know when you're going to accidentally get on the bad side of someone who is willing to tell a convincing lie or has connections.
They're either not the brightest bulb in the shed, or they're not actually from the US and have no skin in the game.
>What I really don't get is what makes them so convinced that the state apparatus they're such a fan of won't be turned on them?
They genuinely believe that the vast majority shares their opinion, through ignorance and personal filter bubbles from social media.
So if it gets turned back on them, that would be "wrong" and "undemocratic" because their beliefs ARE democracy, because there's "more" of them. They believe that could only happen through fraudulent elections.
I'm talking more on an individual level. Police states can be weaponized to settle petty and personal grudges, and it doesn't matter if the victims are in the "majority" or not.
"My neighbor is actually a Canadian citizen who is using stolen identity papers." is the next logical level of SWAT-ting someone.
> “The weirdest part to me is that people still don’t seem to understand this?”
The weirdest part will be any middle class worker who doesn’t later say, _I was a supporter, because I believed he would bring back manufacturing and jobs. I was wrong._ Everyone else is a cultist or wealthy.
The last couple guys in recent memory who did this kind of thing weren’t (actually) good for wealthy people either. Germany and Italy didn’t exactly do well in the whole ‘preservation of Capital’ angle at the end of the war.
> "...weren’t (actually) good for wealthy people either..."
Especially if you're invested in adding to the US's electrical capacity:
GOP Bill Adds Surprise Tax That Could Cripple Wind and Solar (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44421749)
Their argument was Trump personally delaying the departure by one day to ask if anyone wants to stay and train American workers. I.e. they understand they messed up, but don’t want to admit any mistake.
idk after this fiasco, Hyundai will have a big time trouble finding competitive workers who would want to go to the USA...
I mean, prior to this, just a small possibility of being sent to the US was a big perk (job descriptions often highlighted this in bold fonts)
Hence, companies would rotate people to hush complaints ("that guy gets to go to the US more than me!")
now... if being sent could mean "you could be banned from entering/working in US", it's a big no-no
Anyway, this will mean extra costs + less competitive people going to the USA (they should be forced to go, so... it'll probably be people with career dead-ends, whom americans might not want to 'learn from'...)
the only fix to the issue: officially commit huuuuge working visa quota for s.koreans...
Everyone will adapt the same way as businesses adapted to local specifics in other countries. Russia was wild, China was hard, most of Africa is crazy, but if there are money, entrepreneurial energy will channel towards it. The real losers here are American consumers, because extra risks (or privileged access to market premiums for locals) will be included in price.
..except no one had to "adapt" -- those workers were supposed to go back after the set-up work is over, and Americans would get the jobs after the set-up work.
this isn't some low-skill burger-flipping workers staying permanently and replacing a whole career of american citizens' jobs...
US just had to turn a blind-eye, wait until those workers are done with the set-up and leave for good
And now... things got ugly too quick -- I doubt even Trump wanted this.
My pet theory is... this is a classic example of an political double-spy (Tori Branum) being "cooperatively passive-aggressive"
(if party a shouts for A, get inside party a, and go to the extreme far-end of A to show A is bad -- though in reality, some middle-ground was what party a was initially aiming for)
> "Well, they should have hired Americans", even if that is completely infeasible
Who determined it is infeasible and how was it determined? Show me the data and the process that lead to this conclusion. It's a car assembly plant, not a semiconductor fab that requires niche advanced degrees only available in Taiwan.
Surely the required labor can be found across a country of 300 million people, or easily trained from other adjacent fields that have lost workers due to economic driven redundancies or who want to switch careers for whatever reason.
>Then, when these places stay poor, they'll blame foreign governments, Democrats, "bureaucrats in DC"
Why shouldn't they be blamed? They're the ones telling their voters at election times that there'll be a factory opening where they live and then the voters rejoice and think "woo-hoo, more jobs for us" but then the bureaucrats are like "well, actually, those jobs will go towards imported foreigners, not to you, because you're not qualified enough or some other bullshit reason" and then the voters will clap back with "well I'm a product of YOUR education system mf-er, so it's YOUR fault that I'm not qualified enough". If you were them, wouldn't you be pissed too?
Funny how HN likes to criticize and gaslight people that it should be societally acceptable that foreigners being brough to take manufacturing jobs from locals, but they throw a hissy rage fit when H1Bs are being brough to the US to take their cushy tech jobs. Hypocrisy much?
Edi: love the empty angry downvotes with no explanation and no counter arguments simply because my detailed argument goes against the narrative. Means I'm right.
> Who determined it determined it is infeasible how was it determined? It's a car assembly plant, not a semiconductor fab that requires niche advanced degrees only available in Taiwan
It's not a car assembly plant. It's a battery factory. There is a car
> Surely the required labor can be found across a country of 300 million people, or easily trained from other adjacent fields that have lost workers due to economic driven redundancies or who want to switch careers for whatever reason.
When it is operational, probably. But right now it is being built and most of the Korean workers were engineers and technicians specializing in installing, testing, and bringing up highly technical specialized battery manufacturing equipment from Korea.
> They're the ones telling their voters there'll be a factory opening where they live and then the voters rejoice and think "woo-hoo, more jobs for us" but then the bureaucrats are like "well, actually, those jobs will go towards imported foreigners, not to you". If you were them, wouldn't you be pissed too?
These were temporary workers to install and bring up the equipment, and train US workers to operate it. Once running it was indeed going to employ mostly US workers, around 3000 directly and maybe another 5000 US jobs would be created in the domestic parts of its supply chain.
There is also a car factory in the same campus. That is running and most of the workers are US citizens. Hyundai has emphasized training local workers.
>When it is operational, probably. But right now it is being built and most of the Korean workers were engineers and technicians specializing in installing, testing, and bringing up highly technical specialized battery manufacturing equipment from Korea.
OK good point. But then why hasn't Hyundai US management made sure to get their imported workers legal visas or that the people they hired had their visas up to date? Surely when you're running a business visa and immigration laws is another one of the things on your checklist, similar to having to follow OHSA laws, fire safety, fire drills, first aid, diversity and sensitivity training, etc and all the other stuff companies operating in the US have to follow.
Also be aware, my original comment was target that person's comment specifically, not the issues from the article.
I most humbly suggest that your finger is pointed in the wrong direction.
The ASMR deportation videos from the Homeland Security department and the fetish this maga movement seems to have in brutalizing foreigners coming to the US would indicate to me that the paperwork is not the problem.
Maybe that is the underlying point. Why does the US government, this administration, and its supporters have a fetish for chaining up foreigners and putting them in deportation camps housed no better than cattle (alligator alcatraz?)? Do they not consider the consequences of this?
US sales pitch: "Please build factories here, but I reserve the right at my own discretion with no warning to parade your employees in chains and stuff them into poorly maintained detention centers. Then to kick them out of the country and blame you.".
Who says they didn't? There is only one party here who acted in bad faith, and it wasn't Hyundai.
In fact, this party has a — by now well-established — track-record of precisely this bad behaviour. They haven't even tried to hide their actions, only their individual faces. They've been public about their disdain for the law, for humanity, and their general evil plans.
And here you are accusing their victims of crimes you, like them, have no evidence of.
>There is only one party here who acted in bad faith, and it wasn't Hyundai.
Oh, so you were there present witnessing the arrests, and then you managed to check their visas to confirm Hyundai was 100% squeaky clean?
Then why aren't you with Hyundai suing the US government for abuse. Lawyers will have a field day with this if what you say is true.
>In fact, this party has a — by now well-established — track-record of precisely this bad behaviour. They haven't even tried to hide their actions, only their individual faces. They've been public about their disdain for the law, for humanity, and their general evil plans.
If you're talking about the evil Chaebol Hyundai here, then you'd be right, as it indeed has a very poor track record for legal violations:
### Hyundai Motor Group Controversies (Korea & International)
- *Korea: Embezzlement (2006–2007)*
Chairman Chung Mong-koo got a suspended sentence for embezzling ~$106M for bribes and family control. Exposed chaebol corruption.
- *Korea: Labor Disputes (Ongoing, peaked 2014–2016)\*
Violent strikes over wages and conditions cost $2.4B in production. Unions criticize Hyundai's autocratic management.
- *Korea: Whistleblower Retaliation (2016–2017)*
Engineer Kim Gwang-ho exposed safety defect cover-ups, faced retaliation, and sparked U.S. probes and recalls.
- *Korea: Family Succession Feuds (1990s–2010s)*
Chung family power struggles led to splits and nepotism allegations, highlighting chaebol governance issues.
- *International: Fuel Economy Fraud (2012–2014)*
Hyundai/Kia overstated MPG for 1M+ U.S. vehicles, paid $300M in fines and credits.
- *International: Diesel Emissions Cheating (2015–2022)*
Accused of using defeat devices, Hyundai settled for $192M in the U.S. and recalled millions globally.
- *International: Safety Defects (2010s–2020s)*
Engine fires and brake issues led to 3M+ U.S. recalls and $100M+ in fines, tied to whistleblower claims.
"It was the Hyundai Corpo that broke the law! They're stealing American jobs! That's why ICE targeted them! No, I have no evidence, only blind belief. Why are you even asking me for evidence?! What about when Hyundai did bad things in the past???!!?1?"
You can't do factory bringup without people on site; this is also something people have observed in the other direction when outsourcing to China, you need to send someone from the design team to the production line.
It's not clear to me what visa one is supposed to use for this or even if one is available at all.
A lack of clarity that is less likely to persist thanks to this event. Obviously we need better policy here, or a clarification of the law, and thankfully we now will get it.
To respond to your edit, my guess people downvote you because you completely misunderstood the situation and did not care to correct you when the situation was explained so many time, and probably think you're disingenuous.
I think you're not, so I'll try to explain:
When the technicians I work with install a new windfarm/gas plant router to connect them to electricity markets (they probably do other stuff but my job is the software part of networking, so I only know about that), we could hire a local contractor with CISCO cert, and it would certainly be cheaper than fly out 20 workers to Argentina, Australia, Romania or Mexico. We don't, because our employees will use the same technique, the same methodology each time, for every client, and we will never have to guess how the installation was done, because we know. You can put a price on trust, but it's really expensive. If we had plants in the US, I guarantee we would do the same, for the same reasons, unless the government bought our trust (which is basically reimbursing our losses if the plant fails because the installation wasn't done as our technicians would have).
Unless we hire permanent workers as we did in Romania because we took a big market share there, training someone to follow our procedure, highly personalized, for a week to a month of work is just not worth it, especially when so many specialties are needed for like one hour on one site. We do hire locals to run the day-to-day operations, but the installation, it's just not worth it. Better to fly a tech team every 5 years, that stay like a month, look around, fix shit, then leave.
For the second part: you misunderstood the situation. The workers were only there for the installation of the assembly line (and probably training for the B1s), not to work full-time.
Note that at least some of the workers have basically the same job as our technicians, network engineers, people I work with a lot and that I really respect. To see that parade, picture and video of them being taken on purpose while in chains (not handcuffed, in literal chains) to humiliate them on purpose, and seeing so many Americans cheer in front of that makes me hate most of you. Sorry, I know 'not all Americans', only a third, but still. Cheered because workers are publicly humiliated. That's what your country looks like from the outside.
> To see that parade, picture and video of them being taken on purpose while in chains to humiliate them on purpose and seeing so many Americans cheer in front of that makes me hate most of you
Firstly, where do you see me cheering for that? I never said I approved of that. I was explaining how things work from the perspective of the people living there since they're less likely to be here commenting on HN.
Secondly, who is this "most of you", you claim to hate? I am not even from the US and don't approve of that, I was explain you the thought process of the people who approve of that, since it's simple and quite obvious. Your hate for me is unfounded.
> Cheered because workers are publicly humiliated.
I'll explain you again why the people there cheered. Put yourself in their shoes, you have no good education, no work opportunities, nothing, and suddenly when a factory opens in your town but instead of you getting jobs there, you see foreigners without working visa getting jobs there. Wouldn't you also cheer when you see law enforcement taking them away chains for the unfairness you perceive? To them it doesn't matter all the things you explained here about knowledge transfer and shit, that is irrelevant, what matters is that there's job opportunities that go to outsiders and not to them and they feel wronged by the system so seeing people in chains gives them a sense of retribution.
I can't believe I have to explain it several times, such basic stuff like the 'crabs in a bucket' mentality and why they cheer for such events unfolding. Are people THAT oblivious to this fact of life?
HN users aren't above this themselves. You'll see the same mentality crawl out of them if they're struggling to land jobs but see companies hiring H1B workers instead.
> That's what your country looks like from the outside.
Again, not my country, but if you asked the people there they will agree with my interpretation of the things because it's just basic human psychology.
No need to worry though. Hyundai will also give a "gift" to Trump just like Tim Cook's $300k 24 karat solid gold Apple stand, and Trump will make everything go back to normal and everyone wins. Trump got to look tough to voters by parading foreigners in chains and Hyundai gets to keep making money in the US like before. It's how business is done in banana republics.
Interestingly, the same happened in Western France 10-15 years ago or so, when my father worked in construction, with detached polish and Romanian workers. The unions and workers worked really hard (with the help of journalists and judges) to find proof of illegal employment, found them, arrested the CEOs and RH responsible, put some in prison and fined them backbreaking amounts.
My father was not a direct part of that (he stopped working in construction late 2013 and the exploitation continued until 2014 I think, and was judged in 2016), but he hosted two polish workers (or maybe the same twice), as some of his old friends did. No one would've cheered because we're not idiots, we know who we have to struggle against.
If you zoom out a bit, the consensus on this issue is pretty status quo: the bad guy is the government (ICE), not large multi-national corporations (hundai).
The bias is toward free market libertarian small government anti-populist cosmopolitanism. From that incentive structure all opinions flow.
> Surely the required labor can be found across a country of 300 million people, or easily trained from other adjacent fields that have lost workers due to economic driven redundancies or who want to switch careers for whatever reason.
Okay, so, you want to build a factory, installing vast quantities of specialised equipment, some of which likely literally only exists in your other factories. Do you (a) send over experienced technicians from one of your other facilities for a few months or (b) spend a few years training locals to do your highly specialised stuff, then when it's done in a few months fire them?
> whether any of these hundreds of people got to defend their case to a judge. Shouting "I'm here legally" while being rounded up by LEOs is not due process.
Well, no, but that's not how US immigration works any more, and never did at the border. Everyone very loudly points out that non-citizens don't have constitutional rights.
As a UK employee of a US multinational (+), I think I know what happened here, because it nearly happened to a colleague of mine. He went to visit HQ for a week, and made the mistake of saying at the border that he was coming to "work" rather than "business meetings". Non-visa travel generally allows the latter but not the former, even if the distinction isn't always clear.
It seems ludicrous that someone doing the same job for the same employer on the same IT systems suddenly becomes a criminal if they bring themselves and their laptop to HQ for a few days, and up until now this was always waived, along with simply observing that the person had a return ticket and a hotel. Now there's a much bigger risk if you say the "w" word.
I suspect what happens is that Hyundai sent over a bunch of Hyundai employees to get the Hyundai factory started, as everyone would expect, without going through the difficult and expensive process of securing short term work visas (which catgegory would this be anyway?)
(+) I suppose this makes me the evil offshoring taking all your jobs? Hi guys.
>Everyone very loudly points out that non-citizens don't have constitutional rights
I'm assuming you mean at the border (crossings/airports), the same thing applies to citizens, under the excuse that their citizenship hasn't been verified until they're through immigration.
Though I cannot say it adds much clarity. Apparently, some people caught in the raid may have had valid visas. Unsurprisingly, the whole thing sounds like a poorly planned mess.
> I'm not particularly sympathetic to Hyundai here, and it wouldn't be surprising if they subcontracted a sublegal operation to cut costs
Often Visa systems are overly complex and it's just a matter of bureaucracy making things impossible within a particular timeline. My cynical lens on this is that someone with a vested interest (like a competing company or a lobbyist from a competing industry) that has the ear of the administration has made this happen.
All the same, I imagine this only worsens the risk assessment for the US as a place of investment and business.
> My cynical lens on this is that someone with a vested interest (like a competing company or a lobbyist from a competing industry) that has the ear of the administration has made this happen.
You don't need to go that far. Simple incompetence, cruelty, a complete lack of accountability and a need to meet quota is a sufficient explanation.
Like maybe someone other than Hyundai that makes electric cars? Reports said this raid took months to plan. Who had the president's ear a few months ago?
> Like maybe someone other than Hyundai that makes electric cars?
Well this is specifically a battery plant. So any local competitors with battery products have a vested interest. Or makers of gasoline cars. Or oil refineries, or any company in the supply chain that sells fuel for motor vehicles. Battery plants can also manufacture cells for grid storage, so that includes gas drillers, nuclear, etc. and their whole supply chain. That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more vested interested than that.
> Who had the president's ear
Specifically I said 'the administration'. Governments are large institutions that are famously impressionable by corporate interests, especially so—and particularly now—in the US where many of the safeties are off in comparison to other modern western democracies.
> a few months ago?
Regulatory capture happens over a much longer timeframe.
I mean, it would be surprising. In what world does Hyundai want to build a multi billion dollar plant in a foreign country and subcontract to a 'sublegal operation' which still has to send foreign nationals, presumably experts in their specific fields along with housing them to 'cut costs'...?
If you start enforcing Labour laws for everyone that is sent between multi nationals a lot of economic activity will simply cease. Do you think every American going abroad for their company has all the right paperwork? If you don’t let Mr Kim who is the only guy who knows how to rig some robots together in because he said something naughty about Trump on Facebook once you will have to build your own factories
I mean, yes, I would hope they have the right paperwork? E.g. if you're going on a business trip then you're going to need a visa allowing business trips, if you're going to work you're going to need a visa that allows work, etc. I don't see why this is unreasonable.
If it is unreasonable then the rules need to change - no point having rules if they can't be enforced.
B1 visa (the 'business trip' visa):
> A B-1 visa may be granted to specialized workers going to the United States to install, service, or repair commercial or industrial equipment or machinery purchased from a company outside of the United States, or to train U.S. workers to perform such services.
So on the face of it you'd think a B1 visa would be sufficient here.
Go read Federal court cases and see how much they have to extend 'good faith'. You can't strictly enforce systems on people, it doesn't work. Even Federal courts recognize this and have to extend 'good faith' to Federal officers and trust intentions versus strictly following the rules.
disclaimer: i'm native korean (living in south korea also)
> whether any of these hundreds of people were actually working without an appropriate visa
IIRC It appears that many of those arrested entered the country using ESTA which is tourism purposes only. They are likely subcontractors of this company.
> It's quite hard to imagine none of them have cases even worth hearing
I think it's due to the related investigation was conducted quickly, as most of them entered the country for the same purpose.
I'm not sure - if I were going for business I would be doing my primary job function. E.g. having meetings or workshops. I couldn't get employment in a local company there on an ESTA, I wouldn't say.
It feels like something very shady, is going on with Hyundai, but in order to say face, they keep pointing the finger back at the Americans. Someone on their end made a tremendous mistake, and I think they need to just accept that and admit it.
That's quite an insult! I wonder how many foreign workers (or foreigners in general) take the eventuality of getting "randomly" detained into account while travelling into USA.
As someone from Europe (the Netherlands), it is an important reason for me to no longer consider to travel to the USA. The idea of the possibility to be deported to a prison facility in South America or Africa, with no due process is simply terrifying.
I would strongly advice any fellow countrymen not to travel to the USA, especially if they are not 'pure' white. There are many Dutch with Dutch parents that are not 'pure' white, because they have a Chinese, an Indonesian, a Caribbean, an Italian, a Spanish, a Moroccan, or a Turkish ancestor (to mention just some possibilities).
It's definitely a growing concern, coworkers visiting their home countries have been half-jokingly saying "see you in X weeks, assuming everything goes fine at the border" and even US citizens and permanent residents are being strongly encouraged to plan out contingencies (remote work, what to say to maybe be able to contact the immigration attorney if detained etc) with the company before leaving, just in case.
I do. Never been to US since the Patriot act, a have a several-million dollars small startup and would love to see Colorado and California, why not move there, but I’m just afraid of TSA.
On the other hand, I envy USA for enforcing their visas. Europe follows American criminality stats by 10 years, so when we used to mock USA for George Floyd, we’re now in it; for Korean shop owners, we’re now in it; For random knives in busses, we’re in it, and with school shootings, it’s just a matter of time until it happens.
And European people are much farther away from reaching the conclusion that law must be enforced in multicultural nations.
> Gun control means no more school shootings. See Dunblane.
If you are citing Dunblane as an example of gun control not working, perhaps consider the fact that you had to go back to 1996 to find such a bad example in a country with strong controls means that while it doesn't work 100% it does work really rather well. To find a similar example (>20 dead or injured in a school or related environment) in the US you'd to go all the way back into the mists of time to… August. Before that the last large school shooting was Uvale in 2022, still only three years not 29.
> If you are citing Dunblane as an example of gun control not working
No, the opposite. An example of the policy response working. The tragedy was met with universal revulsion and tightening of gun control. There were a few complaints that the tightening was a bit much, but there wasn't a significant faction of people who said that a few dead schoolchildren were a necessary sacrifice for their gun "rights".
(School shootings seem to be a post-cold-war phenomenon. Dunblane was 1996; Columbine was 1999)
That was just something claimed on social media with no evidence to back it up. The autopsies showed he had fentanyl in his bloodstream, but not a lethal dose.
I think Korea has been asking for something like the temporary nafta/USMCA visa that lets people in approved specialties work in neighbouring countries on a temporary basis.
Totally hurting her community.
<https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/meet-the-woman-claiming-to...>
They were looking for 4 latinos, but then decided to arrest almost 500 workers, most of them Koreans - highly skilled technicians.
And the pictures of them being shackled in full body chains as if they were dangerous criminals is absolutely insulting and degrading.
This is not how you attract investment.
But every article I've read on this makes no statement about whether any of these hundreds of people were actually working without an appropriate visa, or whether they were given the chance to demonstrate their legitimacy, or whether any of these hundreds of people got to defend their case to a judge. Shouting "I'm here legally" while being rounded up by LEOs is not due process.
I'm not particularly sympathetic to Hyundai here, and it wouldn't be surprising if they subcontracted a sublegal operation to cut costs. But in a group of a few hundred people it's quite hard to imagine none of them have cases even worth hearing.
This is because ICE is being particularly tight lipped about those details.
The New York Times got their hands on the records for 11 detainees. 6 on B1/B2 visas. 4 on 90-day waivers. 1 Unknown.
ICE claims visa violations, but the records do not state what work the detainees were actually doing. This is especially relevant for the B1 visas, which do permit certain business activities (including applicable ones for this situation; Meetings, trainings, "installation, service, and repair of foreign-bought machinery".
Of particular note is that in one case (out of these 11), ICE's records state there was no visa violation. The worker was deported anyway, forced into a "voluntary" departure.
(https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/12/business/economy/hyundai-...)
Personal opinion: The degree to which hyundai may or may not have violated the law or operated within previously-tolerated gray areas remains to be seen. But the actions of ICE here are not those of a competent government organisation.
There should be clear records, they should be able to readily answer press questions. And yet they don't.
Worse still is that one person deported despite there being, even by ICE's own admission, no visa violation. Hard to assume good faith in incomplete or withheld records with such shit going on.
And what are other foreign companies to do with this? "Move your manufacturing to America! Oh btw even if you follow all laws to the letter a local chud may deport your workers for being not white enough and ruin the entire project" is an interesting sales pitch.
The goal is to ‘look tough’ for the base, demonstrate the power to act without having to follow the laws, and overall - inspire fear. To extract concessions and inspire fear based loyalty.
The weirdest part to me is that people still don’t seem to understand this?
It's possible to understand this perfectly and yet prefer to try and argue a more reasonable interpretation, hoping whoever you're talking to won't pick up on bad faith.
What I really don't get is what makes them so convinced that the state apparatus they're such a fan of won't be turned on them? Even if you look like you belong, say the right things, hold the right opinions, you never know when you're going to accidentally get on the bad side of someone who is willing to tell a convincing lie or has connections.
They're either not the brightest bulb in the shed, or they're not actually from the US and have no skin in the game.
They genuinely believe that the vast majority shares their opinion, through ignorance and personal filter bubbles from social media.
So if it gets turned back on them, that would be "wrong" and "undemocratic" because their beliefs ARE democracy, because there's "more" of them. They believe that could only happen through fraudulent elections.
"My neighbor is actually a Canadian citizen who is using stolen identity papers." is the next logical level of SWAT-ting someone.
The weirdest part will be any middle class worker who doesn’t later say, _I was a supporter, because I believed he would bring back manufacturing and jobs. I was wrong._ Everyone else is a cultist or wealthy.
Especially if you're invested in adding to the US's electrical capacity: GOP Bill Adds Surprise Tax That Could Cripple Wind and Solar (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44421749)
Then, when these places stay poor, they'll blame foreign governments, Democrats, "bureaucrats in DC", "woke" policies, etc. Rinse and repeat.
I mean, prior to this, just a small possibility of being sent to the US was a big perk (job descriptions often highlighted this in bold fonts) Hence, companies would rotate people to hush complaints ("that guy gets to go to the US more than me!")
now... if being sent could mean "you could be banned from entering/working in US", it's a big no-no
Anyway, this will mean extra costs + less competitive people going to the USA (they should be forced to go, so... it'll probably be people with career dead-ends, whom americans might not want to 'learn from'...)
the only fix to the issue: officially commit huuuuge working visa quota for s.koreans...
this isn't some low-skill burger-flipping workers staying permanently and replacing a whole career of american citizens' jobs...
US just had to turn a blind-eye, wait until those workers are done with the set-up and leave for good
And now... things got ugly too quick -- I doubt even Trump wanted this.
My pet theory is... this is a classic example of an political double-spy (Tori Branum) being "cooperatively passive-aggressive" (if party a shouts for A, get inside party a, and go to the extreme far-end of A to show A is bad -- though in reality, some middle-ground was what party a was initially aiming for)
Who determined it is infeasible and how was it determined? Show me the data and the process that lead to this conclusion. It's a car assembly plant, not a semiconductor fab that requires niche advanced degrees only available in Taiwan.
Surely the required labor can be found across a country of 300 million people, or easily trained from other adjacent fields that have lost workers due to economic driven redundancies or who want to switch careers for whatever reason.
>Then, when these places stay poor, they'll blame foreign governments, Democrats, "bureaucrats in DC"
Why shouldn't they be blamed? They're the ones telling their voters at election times that there'll be a factory opening where they live and then the voters rejoice and think "woo-hoo, more jobs for us" but then the bureaucrats are like "well, actually, those jobs will go towards imported foreigners, not to you, because you're not qualified enough or some other bullshit reason" and then the voters will clap back with "well I'm a product of YOUR education system mf-er, so it's YOUR fault that I'm not qualified enough". If you were them, wouldn't you be pissed too?
Funny how HN likes to criticize and gaslight people that it should be societally acceptable that foreigners being brough to take manufacturing jobs from locals, but they throw a hissy rage fit when H1Bs are being brough to the US to take their cushy tech jobs. Hypocrisy much?
Edi: love the empty angry downvotes with no explanation and no counter arguments simply because my detailed argument goes against the narrative. Means I'm right.
It's not a car assembly plant. It's a battery factory. There is a car
> Surely the required labor can be found across a country of 300 million people, or easily trained from other adjacent fields that have lost workers due to economic driven redundancies or who want to switch careers for whatever reason.
When it is operational, probably. But right now it is being built and most of the Korean workers were engineers and technicians specializing in installing, testing, and bringing up highly technical specialized battery manufacturing equipment from Korea.
> They're the ones telling their voters there'll be a factory opening where they live and then the voters rejoice and think "woo-hoo, more jobs for us" but then the bureaucrats are like "well, actually, those jobs will go towards imported foreigners, not to you". If you were them, wouldn't you be pissed too?
These were temporary workers to install and bring up the equipment, and train US workers to operate it. Once running it was indeed going to employ mostly US workers, around 3000 directly and maybe another 5000 US jobs would be created in the domestic parts of its supply chain.
There is also a car factory in the same campus. That is running and most of the workers are US citizens. Hyundai has emphasized training local workers.
OK good point. But then why hasn't Hyundai US management made sure to get their imported workers legal visas or that the people they hired had their visas up to date? Surely when you're running a business visa and immigration laws is another one of the things on your checklist, similar to having to follow OHSA laws, fire safety, fire drills, first aid, diversity and sensitivity training, etc and all the other stuff companies operating in the US have to follow.
Also be aware, my original comment was target that person's comment specifically, not the issues from the article.
The ASMR deportation videos from the Homeland Security department and the fetish this maga movement seems to have in brutalizing foreigners coming to the US would indicate to me that the paperwork is not the problem.
Maybe that is the underlying point. Why does the US government, this administration, and its supporters have a fetish for chaining up foreigners and putting them in deportation camps housed no better than cattle (alligator alcatraz?)? Do they not consider the consequences of this?
US sales pitch: "Please build factories here, but I reserve the right at my own discretion with no warning to parade your employees in chains and stuff them into poorly maintained detention centers. Then to kick them out of the country and blame you.".
In fact, this party has a — by now well-established — track-record of precisely this bad behaviour. They haven't even tried to hide their actions, only their individual faces. They've been public about their disdain for the law, for humanity, and their general evil plans.
And here you are accusing their victims of crimes you, like them, have no evidence of.
Government law enforcement says.
>There is only one party here who acted in bad faith, and it wasn't Hyundai.
Oh, so you were there present witnessing the arrests, and then you managed to check their visas to confirm Hyundai was 100% squeaky clean?
Then why aren't you with Hyundai suing the US government for abuse. Lawyers will have a field day with this if what you say is true.
>In fact, this party has a — by now well-established — track-record of precisely this bad behaviour. They haven't even tried to hide their actions, only their individual faces. They've been public about their disdain for the law, for humanity, and their general evil plans.
If you're talking about the evil Chaebol Hyundai here, then you'd be right, as it indeed has a very poor track record for legal violations:
### Hyundai Motor Group Controversies (Korea & International)
"It was the Hyundai Corpo that broke the law! They're stealing American jobs! That's why ICE targeted them! No, I have no evidence, only blind belief. Why are you even asking me for evidence?! What about when Hyundai did bad things in the past???!!?1?"
----
If it:
1. Repeats the arguments of fascists.
2. Defends fascists.
3. Attacks the victims of fascists.
What do you think it is? A duck?!
It's not clear to me what visa one is supposed to use for this or even if one is available at all.
I think you're not, so I'll try to explain:
When the technicians I work with install a new windfarm/gas plant router to connect them to electricity markets (they probably do other stuff but my job is the software part of networking, so I only know about that), we could hire a local contractor with CISCO cert, and it would certainly be cheaper than fly out 20 workers to Argentina, Australia, Romania or Mexico. We don't, because our employees will use the same technique, the same methodology each time, for every client, and we will never have to guess how the installation was done, because we know. You can put a price on trust, but it's really expensive. If we had plants in the US, I guarantee we would do the same, for the same reasons, unless the government bought our trust (which is basically reimbursing our losses if the plant fails because the installation wasn't done as our technicians would have).
Unless we hire permanent workers as we did in Romania because we took a big market share there, training someone to follow our procedure, highly personalized, for a week to a month of work is just not worth it, especially when so many specialties are needed for like one hour on one site. We do hire locals to run the day-to-day operations, but the installation, it's just not worth it. Better to fly a tech team every 5 years, that stay like a month, look around, fix shit, then leave.
For the second part: you misunderstood the situation. The workers were only there for the installation of the assembly line (and probably training for the B1s), not to work full-time.
Note that at least some of the workers have basically the same job as our technicians, network engineers, people I work with a lot and that I really respect. To see that parade, picture and video of them being taken on purpose while in chains (not handcuffed, in literal chains) to humiliate them on purpose, and seeing so many Americans cheer in front of that makes me hate most of you. Sorry, I know 'not all Americans', only a third, but still. Cheered because workers are publicly humiliated. That's what your country looks like from the outside.
Firstly, where do you see me cheering for that? I never said I approved of that. I was explaining how things work from the perspective of the people living there since they're less likely to be here commenting on HN.
Secondly, who is this "most of you", you claim to hate? I am not even from the US and don't approve of that, I was explain you the thought process of the people who approve of that, since it's simple and quite obvious. Your hate for me is unfounded.
> Cheered because workers are publicly humiliated.
I'll explain you again why the people there cheered. Put yourself in their shoes, you have no good education, no work opportunities, nothing, and suddenly when a factory opens in your town but instead of you getting jobs there, you see foreigners without working visa getting jobs there. Wouldn't you also cheer when you see law enforcement taking them away chains for the unfairness you perceive? To them it doesn't matter all the things you explained here about knowledge transfer and shit, that is irrelevant, what matters is that there's job opportunities that go to outsiders and not to them and they feel wronged by the system so seeing people in chains gives them a sense of retribution.
I can't believe I have to explain it several times, such basic stuff like the 'crabs in a bucket' mentality and why they cheer for such events unfolding. Are people THAT oblivious to this fact of life?
HN users aren't above this themselves. You'll see the same mentality crawl out of them if they're struggling to land jobs but see companies hiring H1B workers instead.
> That's what your country looks like from the outside.
Again, not my country, but if you asked the people there they will agree with my interpretation of the things because it's just basic human psychology.
No need to worry though. Hyundai will also give a "gift" to Trump just like Tim Cook's $300k 24 karat solid gold Apple stand, and Trump will make everything go back to normal and everyone wins. Trump got to look tough to voters by parading foreigners in chains and Hyundai gets to keep making money in the US like before. It's how business is done in banana republics.
My father was not a direct part of that (he stopped working in construction late 2013 and the exploitation continued until 2014 I think, and was judged in 2016), but he hosted two polish workers (or maybe the same twice), as some of his old friends did. No one would've cheered because we're not idiots, we know who we have to struggle against.
The bias is toward free market libertarian small government anti-populist cosmopolitanism. From that incentive structure all opinions flow.
Okay, so, you want to build a factory, installing vast quantities of specialised equipment, some of which likely literally only exists in your other factories. Do you (a) send over experienced technicians from one of your other facilities for a few months or (b) spend a few years training locals to do your highly specialised stuff, then when it's done in a few months fire them?
I mean, come on, now.
Well, no, but that's not how US immigration works any more, and never did at the border. Everyone very loudly points out that non-citizens don't have constitutional rights.
As a UK employee of a US multinational (+), I think I know what happened here, because it nearly happened to a colleague of mine. He went to visit HQ for a week, and made the mistake of saying at the border that he was coming to "work" rather than "business meetings". Non-visa travel generally allows the latter but not the former, even if the distinction isn't always clear.
It seems ludicrous that someone doing the same job for the same employer on the same IT systems suddenly becomes a criminal if they bring themselves and their laptop to HQ for a few days, and up until now this was always waived, along with simply observing that the person had a return ticket and a hotel. Now there's a much bigger risk if you say the "w" word.
I suspect what happens is that Hyundai sent over a bunch of Hyundai employees to get the Hyundai factory started, as everyone would expect, without going through the difficult and expensive process of securing short term work visas (which catgegory would this be anyway?)
(+) I suppose this makes me the evil offshoring taking all your jobs? Hi guys.
I'm assuming you mean at the border (crossings/airports), the same thing applies to citizens, under the excuse that their citizenship hasn't been verified until they're through immigration.
Though I cannot say it adds much clarity. Apparently, some people caught in the raid may have had valid visas. Unsurprisingly, the whole thing sounds like a poorly planned mess.
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2025/09/10/the-ice-r...
> I'm not particularly sympathetic to Hyundai here, and it wouldn't be surprising if they subcontracted a sublegal operation to cut costs
Often Visa systems are overly complex and it's just a matter of bureaucracy making things impossible within a particular timeline. My cynical lens on this is that someone with a vested interest (like a competing company or a lobbyist from a competing industry) that has the ear of the administration has made this happen.
All the same, I imagine this only worsens the risk assessment for the US as a place of investment and business.
You don't need to go that far. Simple incompetence, cruelty, a complete lack of accountability and a need to meet quota is a sufficient explanation.
Well this is specifically a battery plant. So any local competitors with battery products have a vested interest. Or makers of gasoline cars. Or oil refineries, or any company in the supply chain that sells fuel for motor vehicles. Battery plants can also manufacture cells for grid storage, so that includes gas drillers, nuclear, etc. and their whole supply chain. That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more vested interested than that.
> Who had the president's ear
Specifically I said 'the administration'. Governments are large institutions that are famously impressionable by corporate interests, especially so—and particularly now—in the US where many of the safeties are off in comparison to other modern western democracies.
> a few months ago?
Regulatory capture happens over a much longer timeframe.
If it is unreasonable then the rules need to change - no point having rules if they can't be enforced.
B1 visa (the 'business trip' visa): > A B-1 visa may be granted to specialized workers going to the United States to install, service, or repair commercial or industrial equipment or machinery purchased from a company outside of the United States, or to train U.S. workers to perform such services.
So on the face of it you'd think a B1 visa would be sufficient here.
> whether any of these hundreds of people were actually working without an appropriate visa
IIRC It appears that many of those arrested entered the country using ESTA which is tourism purposes only. They are likely subcontractors of this company.
> It's quite hard to imagine none of them have cases even worth hearing
I think it's due to the related investigation was conducted quickly, as most of them entered the country for the same purpose.
The ESTA home page says it's business or pleasure. The catch is it's only for trips up to 90 days.
They were found pouring concrete, fitting pipe, and other labor that needed a work visa to perform.
If they hired local union guys or did paperwork for one of the eleven types of work visas, then no issue with ICE.
I would strongly advice any fellow countrymen not to travel to the USA, especially if they are not 'pure' white. There are many Dutch with Dutch parents that are not 'pure' white, because they have a Chinese, an Indonesian, a Caribbean, an Italian, a Spanish, a Moroccan, or a Turkish ancestor (to mention just some possibilities).
Absolutely every canadian crossing at a land border. The steady number of horror stories is keeping them away.
(Air travel is less impacted as canadian pre-clearance proceedures mean anyone rejected by ICE will not also be detained by them.)
On the other hand, I envy USA for enforcing their visas. Europe follows American criminality stats by 10 years, so when we used to mock USA for George Floyd, we’re now in it; for Korean shop owners, we’re now in it; For random knives in busses, we’re in it, and with school shootings, it’s just a matter of time until it happens.
And European people are much farther away from reaching the conclusion that law must be enforced in multicultural nations.
Crime committed by the police.
> Korean shop owners
What's criminal about Korean shops?
> school shootings
Gun control means no more school shootings. See Dunblane.
> law must be enforced in multicultural nations
Nobody ever said it shouldn't, but it has to be enforced in a fair and even-handed way.
> Gun control means no more school shootings. See Dunblane.
If you are citing Dunblane as an example of gun control not working, perhaps consider the fact that you had to go back to 1996 to find such a bad example in a country with strong controls means that while it doesn't work 100% it does work really rather well. To find a similar example (>20 dead or injured in a school or related environment) in the US you'd to go all the way back into the mists of time to… August. Before that the last large school shooting was Uvale in 2022, still only three years not 29.
No, the opposite. An example of the policy response working. The tragedy was met with universal revulsion and tightening of gun control. There were a few complaints that the tightening was a bit much, but there wasn't a significant faction of people who said that a few dead schoolchildren were a necessary sacrifice for their gun "rights".
(School shootings seem to be a post-cold-war phenomenon. Dunblane was 1996; Columbine was 1999)
I don't see how you read that at all.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre
There was a school shooting, and we restricted gun access.
An example of failure of those laws stopping any and all would have been the 2010 Cumbria shootings. But they are still few and far between.
In France, I’ve met a guy who went 180 times in custody between 13 and 18 years old.
I asked him: “Wow. Was it racism?”, literally pointing at his face.
“No”, he said.
>"Even if it happened it was non-lethal"
Which one is it? The social media "posts" you're talking about based that claim on that autopsy report.
per usual it's the other cultures causing the fuss, right.